Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, October 25, 2014

2010 Game Preview and Thread: Knicks at Celtics

The new look Knicks (7-17 road) head to Boston (15-9 home) still looking for their first win following several trades that reshaped the team.  So far the Knicks are 0-2 with McGrady in the starting lineup.  But the Knicks should not have to worry about going 0-3 with McGrady against the Celtics because it does not look like McGrady will play tonight.  McGrady, who looked great to start in his first game, was noticeably slower and limping in his second game.  I haven’t found any official word, but I doubt he is ready for back-to-back games just yet.

Knicks Offense Eff eFG TO OREB% FT/FG
Stat 106 50.2 14.9 23.4 19.2
Rank 19 11 10 27 29
Knicks Defense Eff eFG TO OREB% FT/FG
Stat 109.4 51.4 15.7 27.8 21.2
Rank 23 26 13 27 9
Celtics Offense Eff eFG TO OREB% FT/FG
Stat 106.8 52.4 16.9 22.8 24.6
Rank 13 3 28 28 9
Celtics Defense Eff eFG TO OREB% FT/FG
Stat 101.5 47.7 17.1 26.1 24.4
Rank 1 5 2 14 21

A the second game of a back to back is on the road against the top defensive team in the NBA.  This does not bode well.  After a season low of 67 points last night, the last thing this team needs is to face is a great defense.  But hey, maybe they will rise to the occasion.

What to watch for:  Sergio Rodriguez.  So he hasn’t quite found his stroke yet (4-16 as a Knick–48.3 eFG%, 51.9 TS%), but I’m still excited to have him in place of Duhon.  One thing I like about Rodriguez is his willingness to push the ball. It’d be nice if Chandler and Gallinari got out on the break with him.   A few easy bucket in transition would help a bunch. I’d like to see him use his speed to draw a few fouls too.  He has made 1 ft (1-2) in 55 minutes.  That is not going to help the Knicks poor FT/FG ratio (29th).

What to watch for 2: Al Harrington.  I’m starting to wonder if there is an evil spirit in MSG that makes sure at least two Knicks starters can’t shoot well.  It used to be Duhon and Jeffries, now it looks like Harrington and Chandler.  Harrington is 5-19 in the last two games (2-9 3pta).  The team’s touches king (24.8 USG-r) needs to start producing.

What to watch for 3: Nate Robinson.  If he is healthy, I am very sure he is going to try to put on a show.  I’m curious as to whether a strong willed leader like Garnett can tone Nate down.

Seven losses in a row guys.  Let’s turn this thing around.

133 comments on “2010 Game Preview and Thread: Knicks at Celtics

  1. Ted Nelson

    Hahn also says that Curry has a couple of weeks until he’s ready… my question is ready for what?

  2. Robert Silverman

    Bill Walker was a 2nd rounder out of K-State a few years ago. Was a heralded HS prospect. Has bad knees. Included in the Nate trade for cap purposes. Can jump (as evidenced), but not much else.

    On a side note, when discussing Isiah’s “great” drafting abilities, no one mentions passing on Rondo for Balkman. Crikey

  3. Robert Silverman

    in this forum, yes. I’m talking about the perceived nat’l rep that Isiah has for being a great drafter (if not much else)

  4. d-mar

    We’ve gone from a bad defensive team before the trade deadline to a dreadful defensive team, possibly the worst in the NBA.

  5. astrasberg

    Gallo’s shot has been inconsistant lately, but I have to say his defense is really starting to impress me. He didn’t back down at all to Durant, and was in his face all night, and tonight he’s matched up some with Allen and looked tough.

  6. DRed

    So far, this Rodriguez kid looks good. I wonder what it would cost us to sign him for next year? Man, I hate Eddy Curry.

  7. nicos

    Actually, I haven’t felt the urge to strangle Tommy Heinsohn yet tonight- He may move behind Austin Carr as my least favorite announcer.

    Chandler is hitting his 3’s but I’m a little worried at how many he seems to be putting up lately.

  8. Kikuchiyo

    Tied with nine minutes left. Can we PLEASE steal one tonight? Aren’t we OWED one or two lucky breaks? Right?

  9. Ted Nelson

    Is there anyone who honestly would rather have House than Nate? He’s already one of my least favorite Knicks of all time…

    Walker looks a little better than I expected. He did carry it bringing it up the court with no one within 20 feet of him (wasn’t called luckily), but he could develop into a Raja Bell type if he develops a 3-pt shot (apparently the one he hit tonight was the first of his career). Maybe a Tony Allen type.

  10. ess-dog

    Now that Nate’s gone, Chandler might be the new dumbest Knick. Which isn’t so bad. But why is he shooting at the end of games?

  11. latke

    No, chandler is not the ONLY goat. The knicks have had like a dozen opportunities to take the lead. Each time they blow it, and the celtics come back and score easily. That’s loser mentality. You miss a shot it takes the wind out of your sails.

  12. tastycakes

    My illusions of the T-Mac Knicks suddenly becoming amazing and storming into the playoffs .. they have been shattered.

  13. Ted Nelson

    Yeah House (not the last shot but earlier) and T-Mac rushing 3s to tie the game was a bit frustrating. Guess they’re both aggressive and trying to impress in a new situation… but that was frustrating.

  14. Brian Cronin

    I guess the Knicks have won a few close games this year, so I can’t say that they never get any breaks in these close games, but boy, sometimes it still feels that way.

  15. Ted Nelson

    Come to think of it… no idea why those two were in the game at that point. They had the worst shooting lines of any Knicks. Bill Walker would have been more likely to score points with a possession than either of those two tonight. I find it a little weird that D’Antoni went with, what, 4 new guys and Lee in the final minutes… Guess Chandler was out there at points.

    Barely losing to the Celts isn’t so bad, tasty. Not winning a very winnable game is frustrating though.

  16. Ted Nelson

    David,

    Yeah, I liked House ok when he was on other teams, but having him on your side stinks. His shot selection is way worse than Harrington’s to me.

    I guess my big problem is with D’Antoni having him in their at the end of the game.

  17. Ted Nelson

    ess-dog,

    I don’t think Nate is at all dumb. He’s just annoying and A.D.D. and has a Napoleonic complex.
    Chandler has always had a low b-ball IQ, though it’s improved a lot. His shots weren’t bad. He’s one of the Knicks best scorers. 19 pts on 13 shots. Who would you rather shoot. He missed a decent look from 3 (which House did twice and T-Mac did too), and had a lay-up blocked that would have been an easy two had he took it strong.

  18. ess-dog

    I don’t know- even though we lost, I felt strangely comforted having a “superstar” take the final shot for once. Instead of wannabe’s like Al. I definitely think “clutch shooting” is a skill that only a few have. Maybe when he gets his legs, TMac starts to make more shots like that?
    It’s funny, this year we get crushed by the Bucks, but we usually play the Celtics close.

  19. cgreene

    Is anyone else finding themselves really questioning D’Antoni lately? Why can’t he help find Gallo more shots? Why can’t he ever devise a scenario to teach the team how to get better looks at the end of game? Ever ever ever? Why does he use the foul at the end with 10 seconds to go instead of 25 when the Celtics first got the ball? What is the point of giving Eddie House so many minutes in meaningless games with Gallo and Douglas on the bench? Doesn’t everyone already know what House can do? These are symptoms of players that have not been taught properly what to do in certain situations by their coach, and a coach who is searching for something that isn’t there and ignoring what is.

    I have been a huge D’Antoni supporter. Gun to my head right now I would rather have Scott Skiles.

  20. villainx

    I still think this current team needs a little bit of time to figure things out.

    But for next year, I think I’m more in favor of a max superstar, and some kinda of defensive specialist. Who’s the best defensive FA gonna be out there?

  21. Ben R

    I gotta say I can’t stand House either. There is a reason he has been a spark off the bench his whole career. He is a streaky shooter who, when on, can win a game for you but when off is terrible. He needs to be on a short leash and not in at the end unless he’s on fire.

    I am excited to see Walker play, he might be a solid pick up for us. He was playing great in the D-League and even though that was his first NBA three he was shooting well from three point range in the D-League, over 39% in his two years down there. We have a cheap player option for him so if he plays well he could be an important bench player next season.

    It’s frustrating how the Knicks can score 118 against OKC and 106 against Boston, two top 3 defenses and then only manage 67 against the Bucks. I know the Bucks also have a good defense but a solid offensive outing and we win that game easy.

  22. Robert Silverman

    Hilarious moment of the evening (possibly the year):

    W/30 seconds to go during the timeout, I switched to the NBA Network to watch the Lakers – Grizzlies game rather than listen to Breen & Frazier. The commentators (McHale, Webber and that other guy) were talking about the close game in Boston. They were blathering about it being a surprisingly “competitive game” and that we were in store for an “exciting finish”. “Hm,” I thought to myself. “I can’t remember a Knick hitting a shot to finish a game since, well…Crawford was jacking them up. And they weren’t brilliantly executed set plays, just Jamal getting lucky.”

    As I’m thinking this, McHale says (I’m paraphrasing here), “D’Antoni is great at designing plays, especially in the final moments. You’re excited as a fan to see what he’ll come up w/here. He’s an offensive GENIUS! etc, etc.”

    I almost spewed my Diet Snapple. MD’A may be many things, but his final plays have been an abomination, both on O and on D. I’m willing to accept that the Knick teams he’s coached over the last 1.66 years are utterly incapable of executing his “brilliantly designed endgames”, but odds are McHale is profoundly stupid/basing his judgement on what Nash did in Phoenix. He certainly hasn’t been watching these Nix.

  23. Ted Nelson

    “I don’t know- even though we lost, I felt strangely comforted having a “superstar” take the final shot for once. Instead of wannabe’s like Al. I definitely think “clutch shooting” is a skill that only a few have. Maybe when he gets his legs, TMac starts to make more shots like that?”

    I don’t really know what to say. Don’t really know where to start.

    “Why can’t he ever devise a scenario to teach the team how to get better looks at the end of game? Ever ever ever? ”

    They had some pretty good looks and missed 90% of them. Maybe in part because they just hoisted up the first decent 3 (or in House’s case just jumped up in the air to the side and threw the ball towards the basket), that I can see. They were 1 for their last 9 from 3. 3-9 and maybe they win.

    “Why does he use the foul at the end with 10 seconds to go instead of 25 when the Celtics first got the ball?”

    That was weird. I guess they were hoping for a steal.

    “What is the point of giving Eddie House so many minutes in meaningless games with Gallo and Douglas on the bench? ”

    I think MSG wants to pick up Eddie’s son’s reality show… that’s the only explanation I can think of.

    “I have been a huge D’Antoni supporter. Gun to my head right now I would rather have Scott Skiles.”

    I’m a huge Skiles supporter. A moneyball approach emphasizing defense (relatively undervalued in the NBA) with a Skiles type probably would have been the quickest, surest rebuilding plan.

    “Who’s the best defensive FA gonna be out there?”

    Specialist? Marcus Camby… Maybe Brendan Haywood… 2011 is the year for a defensive specialist: Chandler, Kirilenko, and Dalembert are FAs (not to mention Tim Duncan.

    “There is a reason he has been a spark off the bench his whole career. He is a streaky shooter who, when on, can win a game for you but when off is terrible. He needs to be on a short leash and not in at the end unless he’s on fire.”

    I find it so odd that D’Antoni hated Nate and kept a choke collar on him, but loves Eddie House. House is so clearly an inferior basketball player to Nate.

    “but odds are McHale is profoundly stupid”

    Besides drafting Garnett, his tenure in Minni would certainly indicate as much…

  24. nicos

    One nice thing Chandler did a couple of times (before things fell apart in the last 2 minutes) was pass up a contested 3 for a wide open 18 footer when someone was running at him on a kickout. If Gallo did that on a regular basis (rather than just swinging the ball back out around perimeter) we probably wouldn’t be wondering why he puts up so many lines like tonight with just 5 fga’s in his 28 minutes.

  25. Ted Nelson

    ess-dog,

    I will say that T-Mac’s look wasn’t terrible, but he rushed a shot, shot on the move, and was having a bad night. I wanted to punch him in the face when he did that. I think it might have been drawn-up that way, though, since he didn’t give the ball to 2 or 3 wide open guys, waited for Lee to come open, and the give and go was so smooth. So, I guess I wanted to punch D’Antoni in the face really.

  26. nicos

    “A moneyball approach emphasizing defense (relatively undervalued in the NBA) with a Skiles type probably would have been the quickest, surest rebuilding plan.”

    Probably the quickest way to 5th or 6th seed for sure (which isn’t a bad thing). But no big free agent is going to relish the idea of playing for him. And after two or three years guys are going to start tuning him out and he’ll have to go. So for quick rebuilding, absolutely. If you want to win championships, I don’t know. Guys tend to play looking over their shoulders a little more than they ought to.

  27. Fofs

    Haywood is almost certainly resigning in Dallas now. As for defense specialists, Raja Bell is an FA, knows D’Antoni and will likely be looking for a smaller contract than the one he current have and unlike Jeffries he scores little but can shoot.

  28. Ted Nelson

    nicos,

    You don’t have to win championships with the coach you rebuild with. It may sound shallow, but coaches in the NBA are constantly moving around (being fired mostly).

    Not just a 5th or 6th seed… The classic example of this approach is Detroit. Championship aside, they were one of the top teams in the NBA for a good run. Dumars built with players no one else much cared for.

    As far as Skiles in particular, I think he gets a bad rap in part to do with timing.
    His last year in Phoenix coincides with Marbury’s first. He was fired half way through the season. The next year Frank Johnson got 44 wins out of them, but then they were right back to 30 and Johnson was fired and Marbury was shipped to NY. In hindsight, not getting along with Marbury and/or not getting him to buy into a defensive system hardly seems like a problem. Kidd-Marbury has to go down as one of the worst in NBA history, or at least would if Phoenix never dumped Marbury on NY. Phoenix was a 50 win team with Kidd. NJ was a 50 win team with Kidd. He was one of the best in the NBA at that time and Marbury turned out to be a total dud.
    Skiles helped build up a young Bulls team and was fired when they started to stink, but they haven’t exactly regained their 49 win form since he’s been gone. He got there the year they got rid of Crawford and Marcus Fizer, brought in Gordon, Deng, and Duhon. Tyson Chandler played 80 games v. 35 the season before. Hardly a surprise he turned it around quickly: they were actually an NBA roster that year compared to the joke they had been for a few years. Their offense never improved, which I think is as much Paxson’s fault as Skiles’ (both share the blame). Like Marbury in Phoenix Ben Wallace–his most vocal critic–was traded shortly there after.

  29. greatscott

    I’m really getting sick of people disrespecting D’Antoni, and people overly defending other coaches and players that are not even on this team anymore.

  30. nicos

    Ted- I agree that you can build a very good, even championship moneyball team- I’m just not sure I want Skiles to coach it, especially if your bringing in young talent. Maybe he’s loosened up a bit (I’m personally shocked that he started a guy like Jennings and he seems to have done a good job with Bogut and Ilyasova) but living here in Chicago I can tell you his hard-ass approach didn’t do guys like Deng and Duhon (not to mention Chandler and Curry) any good. I don’t know about Phoenix but in Chicago he had a ton of good young talent and with the exception of Gordon, none of them lived up to their potential. He was merciless with both Curry and Chandler even when it was clear his tough-love (minus the love) approach wasn’t working. It’s easy to look at Curry say he deserved whatever he got but given that this was a kid coming out of high school who had some real physical gifts, you’d think he’d try everything under the sun to try to get him to realize his potential and Skiles couldn’t never even be bothered to hide his contempt for Eddy. Deng still plays like he’s afraid Skiles is going to yell at him.

  31. Nick C.

    I don’t this site sometimes. Nate still gets slobbered over, House comes in shoots light out one game out of three and gets crucified. What gives should House play with himself liek Nate did after every made shot to win you guys over and show his “heart and sprit and energy.” At any rate as Ben said House was used best in NJ in short sputrts if he’s on stick with him if not don’t. By the way he did have 5 boards and 5 assists (the five assists may be Toney Douglas’ monthly averare) FWIW.

  32. jon abbey

    I like Skiles too, but again, we’re trying to attract LeBron. nothing else matters until that’s resolved, and D’Antoni is by far the best coach in place for that goal.

    “I’m really getting sick of people disrespecting D’Antoni, and people overly defending other coaches and players that are not even on this team anymore.”

    haha! I believe you’re looking for knickscandonowrong.net, good luck with that.

  33. Frank

    Very entertaining game last night even though we came up short. TMac looks like he has no legs at all – hopefully that is just a muscle thing that will get better with more burn, not a knee thing that is forever.

    Anyway, am I crazy to think that Bender may deserve more playing time at the 5? Lee is just getting KILLED in there against just about any offensive thinking big man, and any cutter that enters the lane has a free layup. Not only that, Lee is a good rebounder, but it’s usually him in there by himself against guys like Perkins and Garnett — our D-rebounding has just been awful. Not that Bender is any great shakes as a rebounder, but he is a pretty good shotblocker and is as big a body as we have on the roster now.

    And I *gulp* can’t believe I’m even asking about him — but is Eddy available to play and is just getting DNP-CDs or is he still injured?

  34. d-mar

    “TMac looks like he has no legs at all – hopefully that is just a muscle thing that will get better with more burn, not a knee thing that is forever”

    Yeah, have you noticed how he gets no elevation on his jump shot? Not that long ago, he used to rise and fire from 3 point range sort of like LeBron does, now, it looks like its all arms and he comes up short.

  35. DS

    D’Antoni has a ton of cred, and unlike a Pat Riley-type he’s fun to play for, is universally liked, and can inflate stats.

    It’s like some of you are thinking about whether we can get past the conference finals before we’ve reached .500.

    Another point I’d like to raise is that I think we are going to need more cap room this summer and Walsh should start thinking about what he’ll need to do to unload Curry a year before he becomes a FA. Curry is due to make $11 million +, if we sacrifice, say, Chandler in a deal to unload him we may get to keep Lee.

  36. Owen

    DS – I am not the cap expert but i think Curry’s contract might be the most unloadable in the NBA right now….

  37. DS

    Owen –
    Come this summer, it will have a year remaining on it… would you rather have his or Elton Brand’s contract on your payroll??

    If you ran a team who had no cap room in 2010 but might in 2011, would you let Curry (I know YOU might not) if you could nab Gallinari or Chandler?

  38. DS

    sorry I meant to say would you let Curry sit at the end of your bench. My job keeps getting in the way of my posts.

  39. Z

    The Boston radio commentator said during the game last night that Wilson Chandler came oh so close to becoming a Celtic at the deadline. Was that a published report? Can anybody shed light as to the particulars of a Chandler to Boston trade that got nixed at the last moment?

  40. Thomas B. Post author

    Kobe really should be MVP this year. I can’t think of a player that scares me more in the last two minutes of a game. Well Duhon scares me, but not in the same way.

  41. jon abbey

    “Kobe really should be MVP this year.”

    yeah, the way they went 4-1 while he was out makes a great case for him.

  42. DS

    Z, I can’t find anything on the net about that rumor… if the commentator is half as senile as Tommy Heinsohn, I wouldn’t pay the rumor any mind.

  43. villainx

    I thought Curry’s contract was a pretty good situation. Knicks should have room for a couple of good FA, and Curry is tradeable either for a mid season fix, or just let it expire for another FA the following season. If anything, the team has some pretty nice pieces, looks to be able to add a shiny FA or two, and has room for improvement either by trading Curry’s expiring or letting it expire.

    Am I that off?

  44. Owen

    Alright, I am wrong. Not the worst contract in the league…

    Worst player on a 10 million plus contract for sure…

  45. DS

    Villain,

    (1) The team’s current payroll for next year is:

    Curry 11,300,000 + Gallo 3,300000 + Wilson 2,100,000 + Toney 1,070,000 = Total of 17,770,000

    (2) The current salary cap is $57,700,000 which would give the Knicks $39,930,000.00 of space. BUT it is expected to change, most estimates say to about $52 million.

    (3) LeBron, Bosh, and Wade would cost the Knicks about $16,568,908 of cap space each. Lee would cost $10 – 12 million. Sergio Rodriguez may cost a few million, AND as you can see in bullet point #1 we only have 4 players under contract and we have to fill in the roster.

    (4) If we dump Curry’s $11.3 million contract we would $45 – 50 million of cap space rather than $34 – 39 million… if you play with some of the possibilities in #3 you can see that it might be worth sacrificing someone like Gallo to get rid of Curry (if that’s even possible – to Owen’s point). It obviously depends on what’s available THIS summer. They may, for example spend 16.5 on LeBron, 11.5 on Lee and have another $10 to fill in the roster.

  46. ess-dog

    Ted,
    I knew that would get your goat… :)
    Being his 2nd game back, TMac should’ve looked to set up another player, but I like his killer instinct. The Knicks have sorely lacked that for years.
    Frank, I was thinking the same thing about Bender at the 5. He’s skinny, but seems tough. We don’t need help at the 3 where he once played. And his lack of movement would be minimized at the 5. We could use his length in better ways. And it would still keep the team relatively fast. He’s not a great finisher, but few Knicks are, if any. Perkins pretty much had his way in the paint when he got the ball, 7 of 8 or something ridiculous like that. Why isn’t the staff addressing this issue? It’s the same with every team that has a halfway decent big.
    I think the only thing you could get for Curry and Chandler would be Brand or Arenas. In other words, a longer contract but somewhat better player, but still one that another team really wants to move. Maybe you can pry Kaman away. But it’s probably better to let Curry just run out or get something better at the deadline. But I can’t see getting cap space for Curry before the summer of Lebron.

  47. Ted Nelson

    nicos,

    “but living here in Chicago I can tell you his hard-ass approach didn’t do guys like Deng and Duhon (not to mention Chandler and Curry) any good.”

    They (Deng and Duhon) won 47 games as rookies. They were the best defense in the NBA and won 49 games in their 3rd years. They haven’t had anywhere near that success without Skiles. He also got them both paid on deals that now look excessive.

    “I don’t know about Phoenix but in Chicago he had a ton of good young talent and with the exception of Gordon, none of them lived up to their potential.”

    Which ones have lived up to it without him? Noah? He only coached him as a rookie. I wouldn’t put that on Skiles, and in fact a lot of them had their best years under him. He coaches that young talent to 47 and 49 wins. Tyson Chandler, in fact, started living up to his talent right when Skiles got there. Again, I would call that more coincidence than anything personally. But if you want to talk about a coach as the reason players play well or poorly… Lu had BY FAR his best year under Skiles (06-07). Chandler came to under him. Fat Eddy Curry even had his best year under Skiles. Hinrich played his best ball with Skiles.

    “He was merciless with both Curry and Chandler even when it was clear his tough-love (minus the love) approach wasn’t working. It’s easy to look at Curry say he deserved whatever he got but given that this was a kid coming out of high school who had some real physical gifts, you’d think he’d try everything under the sun to try to get him to realize his potential and Skiles couldn’t never even be bothered to hide his contempt for Eddy.”

    It was their 4th year in the league when Skiles came to Chicago. If you’re going to smash someone’s credibility, at least do it with some information that’s factually correct. (You are most likely thinking of another coach if you’re talking about them when they were fresh out of HS.) Curry had one of his better seasons under Skiles (he only played one year under Skiles) and parlayed it into a fat contract… one that was even fatter than he was. Curry must be one of the most frustrating guys in the NBA to coach, so I can’t blame Skiles if he got frustrated. Eddy hasn’t even played in 2.5 seasons now due primarily to a combination of laziness, fatness, and bad attitude. Tyson Chandler blossomed while Skiles was his coach. Their first year together his Win Share were more than twice what they had been before that. He began to be regarded as one of the best interior defenders in the NBA. I’m not saying he has Skiles to thank for that, just that whatever Skiles was doing doesn’t seem to have hurt him.

    “Deng still plays like he’s afraid Skiles is going to yell at him.”

    Lu is a really great guy, but honestly if that is the case that’s his problem. I don’t think it’s the case after two years with Del Negro, though.

    “(I’m personally shocked that he started a guy like Jennings and he seems to have done a good job with Bogut and Ilyasova)”

    I think this is a case where you’re buying too much into his reputation.

  48. taggart4800

    Ok so i beleive i said fairly recently that i didn’t want to talk at length about trades. This was largely because i accept it is a fairly pointless debate as we have no control as to who the team acquires. However, it is addictive! I cannot keep my filthy hands off the trade machine.

    This is my latest, fairly plausible, scenario

    Knicks receive

    Anderson
    Smith
    Williams
    Speights
    Carney

    Nuggets Receive

    Igoudala
    Douglas
    Walker

    Sixers receive

    Curry
    Chandler
    Lawson – to replace williams
    (Trade exception from Knicks if they want to off load speights contract)

    Possible lineup if all goes well

    Speights
    Gallo
    Lebron
    Wade
    Williams

    J.R Smith, Carney, Anderson, (Possible minimums:- Rodriguez, House and T-Mac)

    I don’t think this trade results exactly like this. Knicks get a lot out of this deal. Another stumbling block could be that the Nuggets are not sold on Igoudala being the missing piece if they don’t do it this year. sixers can’t really complain. They lose williams but gain Lawson, lose Igoudala and gain Chandler. Both sub par versions of the players that left, but then if you are looking to dump salary what can you do?

  49. Brian Cronin

    You just had the Sixers unload every contract except the two they desperately want to unload.

    The Sixers wouldn’t trade Iggy for Amare Stoudemire, but they’re going to trade him for Wilson Chandler?

    The Knicks and the Nuggets like that trade, but the Sixers are effectively being, for lack of a less crass term, gangraped.

  50. Brian Cronin

    And do people seriously dislike Scott Skiles?

    I can perhaps buy that teams eventually buck under his leadership, but in the early going, he is great (as has been seen by every team he’s coached).

  51. DS

    “I think the only thing you could get for Curry and Chandler would be Brand or Arenas.”

    (1) I think a team whose cap situation is hopeless wouldn’t mind being saddled with him for one year.

    (2) BUT is there even a way to clear Curry off the books anymore [even in theory]? I know the Knicks can make a trade before July 1… can they deal Curry for a guy who would become a FA on July 1, 2010? Can he (would he) decline his player option and sign and trade for someone they want for the same amount??

  52. Ted Nelson

    jon,
    “we’re trying to attract LeBron. nothing else matters until that’s resolved, and D’Antoni is by far the best coach in place for that goal.”
    I honestly don’t know. Not saying Skiles would be good. But it’s going to be really easy for other suitors to point to D’Antoni’s reputation as a gimmiky offensive coach who won’t play a C (besides Shaq, which was a failure), failed to win a title in Phoenix, and has failed overall in NY. Not saying that’s true, and LeBron probably has his own opinion on the guy–especially having done the national team thing with him.
    Skiles would likely be worse, but if he had the Knicks around .500 it might help them look more attractive and Walsh could always promise LeBron to can him.

    Frank,
    “Anyway, am I crazy to think that Bender may deserve more playing time at the 5?”
    You are crazy. He’s a SG in Jared Jeffries body. I mean maybe try him out, but he’s never shown much willingness or ability to bang/guard the paint. You are right that he might be the only option in this regard. Eddy is apparently still injured… whether it’s his knee or his vagina I’m not sure. (Couldn’t resist it, but I feel bad making a sexist joke.)

    DS,
    We’re not thinking about how far D’Antoni can go so much as how far LeBron thinks D’Antoni can go.
    Trading Curry for 2010 cap space would require a team under the cap being so enamored with Wilson Chandler that they forgo the greatest FA class in history. If it happens it’s probably not going to be until after everything shakes out. Unless it’s a team desperate for a wing player, why not just sign Lee yourself instead of helping the Knicks become a title favorite? I’m sure Donnie is thinking about it, but I’m also sure the chances of doing it are like 2%.
    That space might also be better used in 2011 on Tyson Chandler. I like Lee a lot better overall, but IF the Knicks get two max guys they could use an interior defender, and Tyson rebounds as well and scores as efficiently (on a lower volume) as Lee.
    Would you really give up future cap space and a good young wing player for Elton Brand? His might be the worst contract in the NBA right now.

    ess-dog,

    “I like his killer instinct. The Knicks have sorely lacked that for years.”

    Really? I remember Jamal Crawford “creating” a lot of questionable 3-pt shots for himself and missing them in key situations. Unless you’ve got a legit Wade, James, Pierce kind of closer, just play team basketball and take the best shot available.

  53. DS

    Whoa, whoa, no one proposed trading for Elton Brand. We were saying Elton Brand’s contract is worse than Curry’s… I was saying that there may be a team who DOESN’T HAVE the cap space to go after LeBron or even Lee this summer but DOES HAVE an $9 million expiring that they can trade for Chandler and Curry… BUT, I’m not sure you can still trade a contract that expires in 2010 before July 1st, can you?

  54. Ted Nelson

    Oh, on the moneyball approach… OKC is another good example. Durant gets a lot of credit–and he does CARRY their mediocre offense–but their defense is the reason they are good.

    “Kobe really should be MVP this year.”
    Like Bill Gates should be voted this year’s rags to riches story… He plays on the league’s best team, with the league’s best front-line. He’s a candidate, but I wouldn’t say a favorite. LeBron James, in my opinion, is CLEARLY the most VALUABLE player to have on your team in the NBA.

    Z,
    Probably the Celtics wanted Chandler, but had nothing to offer. I mean they literally have nothing to offer. Even if the Knicks wanted to clear Chandler’s salary for cap space, they could probably get a future first with a high probability of being higher than Boston’s.

    DS,
    “If we dump Curry’s $11.3 million contract we would $45 – 50 million of cap space rather than $34 – 39 million…”
    A trade requires two teams to come to a mutual agreement, though. It might be good to unload Curry for immediate cap relief (arguments against it are using it to trade for a better player(s) before deadline or letting expire and using space in 2011), but it’s not easy to find a team with 2010 cap space that would rather get Curry and Chandler than sign a 2010 free agent. To clear immediate (2010) space, you need to trade with a team under the cap. Trading him for Elton Brand–as you suggest–would put the Knicks in a worse situation in 2010: less cap room, not more.
    “I think a team whose cap situation is hopeless wouldn’t mind being saddled with him for one year.”
    A team whose cap situation is hopeless cannot give the Knicks immediate cap relief for him. They have to give back about as much in salary as they take back.

  55. taggart4800

    It does also work if carney and speights are not involved but i don’t think its worth shipping away three players to get three back. The only reason i would trade curry is to recieve at least two servicable players for him.

    With regards to Brand. I don’t see anybody taking on that contract. Who would? 14 mill he will make for the next 4 yrs! Dalembert runs out in 2011 so i wouldn’t be as desperate to trade him. Williams and Igoudala run for 4 and 5 yrs.

    Maybe they could get a pick out of the Nuggets?

  56. Ted Nelson

    “BUT, I’m not sure you can still trade a contract that expires in 2010 before July 1st, can you?”

    No, you cannot.

  57. DS

    Example: Say Toronto KNEW they were losing Bosh or Utah, Boozer. Would they be smarter to (1) let their free agent come off of their payroll and clear the cap room OR (2) to do a sign and sign and trade with the Knicks and get Curry, Douglas, and Gallo back. They would get two prospective rotation players and Curry would clear in 2011… and the Knicks would have $15+ million re-sign Lee and Sergio.

  58. Ted Nelson

    Taggart,
    “Williams and Igoudala run for 4 and 5 yrs.”

    And they’re good young players plenty of teams would love to have. Williams is their best player this season, and Igoudala has previously been their best player.

    The problem is that the Sixers are giving up the 3 best players in that trade, and receiving very little in return… they trade their 3 best players and are still stuck with Brand’s contract. They get worse and still can’t rebuild. As Brian said, they’ve turned down better offers for Igoudala. Teams will line up to trade for Igoudala, Williams, or Speights… teams might even take Brand to get one of those guys.

    Knicks, meanwhile, give up next to nothing and get the most talent out of the deal. I’m sorry, but it’s completely unrealistic.

  59. Ted Nelson

    DS,

    Toronto would probably turn around and sign Lee… maybe do the sign-and-trade involving Bosh and Lee to also get something else out of it. But the Knicks wouldn’t have the leverage to make them take Curry, unless they were desperate for Gallinari (to create Team Italy in Toronto maybe…Gallo, Bargnani, and Belinelli. They’re not a great national team, so I wouldn’t rush to put them together in the NBA…). And if you do trade both Douglas and Gallinari just to keep Lee, what’s the net gain? Sure I would rather have Lee, but now you have more rotation spots to fill and less cap space/assets going forward to do it with.

    Utah is capped out so can’t turn around and sign a FA. They have one of the best teams in the West plus the Knicks lottery pick and maybe Memphis’ (not sure what the protection on the Brewer pick is) plus they can sign a veteran with the MLE. Is Chandler or Gallo or worth paying a bunch of luxury tax dollars you have to pay on Curry? They’re below the luxury tax now. PLUS, I don’t want Boozer on the Knicks anyway.

    “They would get two prospective rotation players and Curry would clear in 2011… and the Knicks would have $15+ million re-sign Lee and Sergio.”

    Not in Utah’s case… Utah is OVER THE CAP. This means THEY CANNOT TAKE BACK MORE THAN 25% OF THE SALARY THEY TRADE AWAY.

    Do you want Sergio that much more than Gallo AND Douglas? A pass first PG on, in the best case, a LeBron team?

  60. Ted Nelson

    “And if you do trade both Douglas and Gallinari just to keep Lee, what’s the net gain? Sure I would rather have Lee, but now you have more rotation spots to fill and less cap space/assets going forward to do it with.”

    Plus your frontcourt is Bosh and Lee… redundant and really weak defensively. If the Knicks sign Bosh they have no need for Lee.

  61. Ted Nelson

    Thomas,

    These stats are for last season, not this season. However, Kobe takes a whole lot of shots in clutch situations, doesn’t mean he makes a lot.
    http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
    His FG% wasn’t that good in the clutch in 08-09.

    This season I would still rather have LeBron take a clutch shot:
    http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE10.HTM
    http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL5.HTM

    Hitting the actual winning shot is not the only or nearly the biggest way you can win games for your team, and I don’t think it should be a big consideration in MVP voting. If you play a lot better than someone else for 47.5 minutes, you’re helping your team more than someone who makes the last shot.

  62. DS

    Ted,

    You made a lot of points there, but I think you might be a little off base on some if I follow you…

    (1)The package of Gallinari, Curry, and Douglas would be the right amount of salary to send back to Utah or Toronto in exchange for Boozer or Bosh. (2) Neither the Raps nor Jazz have enough cap space to make another big signing like David Lee in 2010 even if they lose their big F.A. ti the Knicks (not to mention the difficulty of luring a player to Salt Lake City or Toronto even if they had cap room). I’m not sure if they are still over the limit in 2011 – but it looks like Utah will make some room when AK47 clears and Toronto when Reggie Evans walks. (3)Gallinari gives either team a young, skilled player if they decide to rebuild. Curry gives them an extra 11 million in cap room to spend in ’11. Douglas is prob. a solid backup. If they let their guys walk for nothing, they don’t get Gallo a net loss in my opinion. (4) I think re-signing Lee and Sergio would be a net gain for the Knicks rather than keeping Gallo and Douglas. Lee is proven. (5) Lee’s game doesn’t necessarily overlap with Bosh. Bosh is a low post go-to guy, Lee a low usage guy who can cleanup on the boards.

  63. DS

    I will concede that living in N.Y. and rooting for the Knicks, Yanks, Rangers, and Giants I do lose sight of the fact that not every owner in sports has the money to waste $11+ million Curry and luxury taxes.

  64. Thomas B. Post author

    Ted I’m not sure what last year’s stats should tell me about who I (and I alone it seems) think should be MVP. Kobe isnt a specialist pulled off the bench when the team needs a three. He keeps his team in games and is far more likely to contribute than hinder. He does far more than just hit a winning shot.

    The guy isnt in the best shape. He’s played through a bad back, fractured finger, ankle woes. Yet he plays, produces (didnt quit) and seals a victory. Let Jordan do that with a mild fever and you never hear the end of it.

    So what makes you MVP? Value to the team? Is it by virtue of being the best player (and does that mean you have to lead the NBA in PER-yes Steve Nash I am looking at you)? Do you have to be the most dominant? Play for a contender? I’m not sure myself. But when I watch Kobe, I just think MVP. It’s subjective criteria I admit, but that is what makes the debate fun.

  65. taggart4800

    @ 91

    Ha! Fair enough. Cant say that i can argue against that too convincingly. Firmly in my place.

    However, Lawson and Chandler aren’t exactly nothing. Chandler’s TS% .535 (as opposed to Igoudala’s .529). His eFG% is higher also.

    Lawson TS% .603 and his eFG% .558 compared to Williams .574 and .519. It isn’t as though he has played considerably less minutes than Williams in order for his stats to be protected either. Lawson has played 1143 and Williams 1343. He is however playing on a very good team, which i must concede does help his cause.
    Add in a possible pick from the Nuggets and that isn’t horrendous. But granted they do lose on Speights and the maturity of the other two guys. Advanced Stats are good but not the complete picture. In this case though, if the sixers are looking to rebuild, it does help to show that getting those guys in return isn’t a bad place to start.
    I personally don’t think anyone will touch Brand and thus they have to look to off load their other contracts much like the wizards have done. If this is the case it would be nice if the Knicks can get a piece of the action.

  66. iserp

    Ted, Game-Winning shots are usually iso plays when the opposing team is playing the best man-on-man defense, so i believe it means something.

    However, i kind of like Kobe much more than Lebron. Simply because i think Lebron is so good not because he is tallented, but because he is so naturally gifted. He runs more, jumps more, is more athletic…, it is like watching a 16 year old playing against kids 2 years younger than him, i mean, it is unfair for the rest of the NBA. Meanwhile Kobe is (or is portrayed by the media) as good shooter who is also a hard worker and tries to improve everyday. So you see, i am totally biased, and support Kobe for MVP. Any chances he opts out and signs for the knicks? Just for the sake of challenge, hehehehehe

    BTW, some bit of info i gathered from realgm on our salary cap. Since Rodriguez comes from the rookie contract, and earns less than the league average, his cap hold is 300% of his current contract, $4.6 million.

    However, since Lee earns this year more than $4 million than the year before, you have to average the contracts to calculate the cap hold. That’s $4.4 million, and that would command a 200% cap hold (since he is not coming from a rookie contract, but $4.4 million is less than the average salary). So that would be a $8.8 million cap hold.

  67. taggart4800

    Plus is receiving Chandler, Lawson and a pick and 10 mill much worse than Martin, Jeffries, Hill and Picks? Maybe so but they also dealt away Landry and Morey was hailed a genius.

  68. Ted Nelson

    DS,

    This has gotten a bit off track from “Knicks can trade Curry and Chandler for cap space.” Curry in a sign-and-trade is possible, but since the Knicks have so much cap space that they can absorb salaries the other team will push for a sign-and-trade without Curry.
    It might happen and it might be a good thing for both sides, but I’m saying there are reasons it might not be best for both the other team and the Knicks.

    “(1)The package of Gallinari, Curry, and Douglas would be the right amount of salary to send back to Utah or Toronto in exchange for Boozer or Bosh.”

    But in one case you have Boozer on your team for the next 5 years. I don’t really want Boozer on the Knicks. Not sure what kind of terms he and LeBron are on after he ditched LeBron in Cleveland, anyway.

    In either case you have a player who makes Lee pretty irrelevant. So, maybe you get that extra cap space, but it’s probably not for Lee. You’re just given up your prized prospect and a guard who has some promise. If that opens up the space for Wade or Johnson along with LeBron and Bosh… SURE. Do that in a heartbeat. Otherwise, I don’t know if it’s better than keeping Gallo and Douglas and trying to use Curry in a trade or use the cap space when he walks in 2011.

    “(2) Neither the Raps nor Jazz have enough cap space to make another big signing like David Lee in 2010 even if they lose their big F.A. ti the Knicks (not to mention the difficulty of luring a player to Salt Lake City or Toronto even if they had cap room). I’m not sure if they are still over the limit in 2011 – but it looks like Utah will make some room when AK47 clears and Toronto when Reggie Evans walks.”

    Toronto might have the space depending on where the cap falls and where the market for Lee is at. If no one is offering Lee more, that’s a move Colangelo would make (he might also push for a Lee-Belinelli sign-and-trade if he barely doesn’t have enough space… and the Knicks might actually love 3-pt shooters enough to do it since Belinelli is the kind of cheap guy they may be looking to fill the roster with… the middle road between Curry and Belinelli is just trading Lee for Bosh straight-up with Lee making a bit less money).
    Either team can use the mid-level (if Toronto doesn’t have enough room not to), to bring in a veteran who is probably as good as Chandler. Maybe not Gallo AND Douglas, depending on their views on those guys… Does Gallo really fit with Bargnani and does Chandler with DeRozan? Utah has a top 10 pick and maybe another mid first to go with their own first… 2 or 3 rookies coming in or could trade up/out for one high impact guy.
    Both can have plenty of room in 2011, but it’s largely irrelevant to this discussion.

    “(3)Gallinari gives either team a young, skilled player if they decide to rebuild. Curry gives them an extra 11 million in cap room to spend in ‘11. Douglas is prob. a solid backup. If they let their guys walk for nothing, they don’t get Gallo a net loss in my opinion.”

    1. Curry does not give them an EXTRA $11 million. They already have that $11 mill if they want it.
    2. Utah is one of the best teams in the Western Conference, not sure they’ll rebuild. Toronto, maybe to an extent, but they just blew a big FA wad last offseason. Either team might like Gallo (though I don’t know how he fits next to Bargnani in the worst rebounding frontcourt of all time), but I don’t know if rebuilding is the word.
    3. Whether it’s a loss or not depends on a lot of things. Whether it’s a loss for the Knicks to give up Gallo also depends on what they can go with that space.

    “(4) I think re-signing Lee and Sergio would be a net gain for the Knicks rather than keeping Gallo and Douglas. Lee is proven.”

    Really depends. If you have Bosh or Boozer (who I really don’t want), why do you want Lee? You’ll get diminishing returns and a weak defensive frontcourt. The cap space might be better spent elsewhere.
    Sergio might jet for Europe. If he doesn’t he’s a pass first PG on a team that presumably will have signed LeBron if they’re going through the trouble of getting rid of two prospects for some extra cap space now rather than in 2011. Conventional wisdom is that LeBron is your playmaker and you want good shooters/defenders around him. Sergio is an ok shooter and a below average defender.

    “(5) Lee’s game doesn’t necessarily overlap with Bosh. Bosh is a low post go-to guy, Lee a low usage guy who can cleanup on the boards.”

    ?????????????????????????????????? Huh? Bosh is not a low-post guy, and Lee is not low usage. Their games are strikingly similar.

    Bosh takes more jumpers than Lee (53% vs. 48%) and is better at making them. This season he’s a comparable rebounder; although, it’s a career year in that regard.

    Why pay Lee $10 mill per to rebound and not shoot when you can pay a Tyson Chandler $10 mill per to rebound, not shoot, AND defend the paint? If you pay Lee $10 mill per you probably don’t ask him to go back to a usage rate of 15.

  69. Ted Nelson

    Thomas,

    All I’m saying is that the MVP should be the guy who is most valuable to his team. LeBron is a much better player than Kobe. A few buzzer beaters doesn’t change that.
    I included this season’s clutch stats as well, if you scroll down on their 82games profiles. I included last seasons only because it’s a list with a lot of players (many of whom are more efficient in the clutch than Kobe), and to debunk the “Kobe is king of the clutch” myth.

    Kobe is the best player on the Lakers. I agree. Team MVP, sure. But he plays with 2 guys who are better than anyone on the Cavs: Pau and Bynum. LeBron is a much better player overall: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jamesle01&y1=2010&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010
    They are not even comparable! LeBron is way more efficient on a higher volume and he’s twice the playmaker Kobe is. He rebounds better. Twice the win shares. Same steals, three times the blocks. Even if you want to argue Kobe is a better man defender, LeBron is no slouch.

    “So what makes you MVP? Value to the team?”

    Yes: most VALUABLE. If they want it to mean something else they should re-name the award.

    I cannot see anyway LeBron doesn’t DESERVE MVP. Maybe he doesn’t get it, but he deserves it.

    “But when I watch Kobe, I just think MVP. It’s subjective criteria I admit, but that is what makes the debate fun.”

    That’s the big problem to me. People watch Kobe with that cocky little grin, making key shots for the best team in the league. So, of course, best player on best team = MVP… Weak sauce in my opinion. Kobe makes the debate less fun in my opinion. I would take Durant over him. I would put Wade, Howard, Paul, and Nash over him. I’d put Roy right on par with him. So, I have him tied for 6th on my ballot. All the fist pumps in the world won’t change that.

  70. Z

    Having the hindsight now to see the trades the Timberwolves have made since June, shouldn’t Donnie Walsh have traded Quentin Richardson to the Wolves this summer for Brian Cardinal and the #17 pick (Ty Lawson)?

  71. DS

    Ted here are the benefits of the two scenarios for 2011:

    Knicks:
    Option 1, make a sign and trade – they keep Lee, Rodriguez
    Option 2 stand pat – they keep Gallinari, Douglas

    Other team (Cavs/Raps/Heat)
    Option 1 make a sign and trade – they get Gallinari and Douglas
    Option 2 stand pat – they get $6 million in cap room and don’t have to pay Curry or tax in 2010.

    I’m just saying that I think an argument can be made that Option 1 is better for both teams. Of course there are other factors. A lot has been made about whether the Knicks will have enough cap space this summer even with the T-Mac trade. And I thought I was introducing an idea that we can REALISTICALLY clear some more.

  72. DS

    Z –
    Ty Lawson’s numbers for February (via ESPN): averaged double figures in scoring while shooting 66 percent from the field and 50 percent on 3s. And with a better than 2-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio.

  73. nicos

    Ted- Skiles had Curry for the better part of two seasons (2003-4, 4-5), his 3rd and 4th when, as a guy coming out of high school he was still very raw. I’m not saying Skiles is to blame for the mess Curry made of his career, I’m just saying he didn’t help (and if you’re looking to rebuild a team with young players it’d be nice to have a coach that did help.) And there’s a perception in Chicago that having Skiles as a coach early in their careers left Deng, Hinrich, and Duhon as overly tentative players. You can make the argument that Duhon and Hinrich aren’t too tentative- they’re just not that good. And maybe that’s just who Deng is and anyone who thought he had perennial all-star potential was way off base. Certainly Crawford and Gordon never had a problem hoisting up shots under Skiles, nor does Jennings now. But the feeling remains that Skiles rode guys too hard and was unwilling to sacrifice a few wins in the short-term for greater long-term success.

  74. Thomas B. Post author

    @102
    “What do you think when you watch Lebron.”

    That he’s too good to ever be a Knick. I can’t get my head around having the best player in the NBA on my team. Yes, I said he was the best, but I still think Kobe is the MVP. I just think Kobe is far more dangerous than Lebron. There is a cold detachment to Kobe–assassin like–that makes me think “He, is going to find a way to win this.” He usually does.

  75. Ted Nelson

    Taggart,

    I did undervalue your offer a bit. I agree to an extent about Chandler and completely about Lawson. I doubt many GMs see it, though. In terms of perceived trade value they aren’t getting much v. what they’re getting. If they also get rid of Brand’s contract, maybe it makes some sense. Complete rebuilding mode. They might be able to do that a lot cheaper, though.

    Igoudala is having a career worst year, while Chandler a career best. Iggy is a career .560 true shooter, and is also a good playmaker. I might take Chandler right now since he’s so much cheaper, but after next season he might get paid a whole lot too (might not, I don’t know… teams often bid against themselves to keep their own guys). Chandler is also pretty similar to Thaddeus Young, whose career has gone in the opposite direction but maybe they’re still high on him.

    I’ll take Lawson over Williams. I just feel like around the league he’s seen as Chauncey’s caddy who is sucking at the teet and/or getting lucky. Pure speculation, but whoever runs the show in Philly may even be in denial after passing on Lawson for Holiday.

    Speights is really the killer, I guess. Plus, they still can’t really rebuild with Brand’s fat contract on the books.

    “I personally don’t think anyone will touch Brand and thus they have to look to off load their other contracts much like the wizards have done. If this is the case it would be nice if the Knicks can get a piece of the action.”

    If you give up your three best players, you can probably unload any contract. They’d be selling really low on Igoudala and their team overall, either way. I think they’re a player or two away from being right back in the Eastern Conference playoffs, not in need of a total rebuild. They won 2 playoff games last season, and if they don’t let Miller walk they might be in the playoffs again.
    If they do rebuild, there’s a good chance they end up right back with young guys and prospects like Speights, AI2, and Williams.

    “Plus is receiving Chandler, Lawson and a pick and 10 mill much worse than Martin, Jeffries, Hill and Picks? Maybe so but they also dealt away Landry and Morey was hailed a genius.”

    Morey traded a guy who hadn’t played in 3 seasons and was bad 4 seasons ago. Philly would be trading their 3 best players, all good young players. They’d still have the guys they really want to trade: Brand and Dalembert (for one more year).

  76. Thomas B. Post author

    @Ted 104

    Excellent points.

    Clearly LBJ is the most dominant/best player in the NBA. Way better numbers than Kobe. PER beats any of Kobe’s best years. Kobe has more help on the Lakers but you could say the Cavs have a bit easier schedule playing in the East (weak sauce I know).

    LBJ= I am good enough to win

    Kobe= I will win

    Maybe its that cocky smirk and cold eyes but he had me at hello.

  77. Ted Nelson

    nicos,

    “Skiles had Curry for the better part of two seasons (2003-4, 4-5), his 3rd and 4th when, as a guy coming out of high school he was still very raw.”

    He’s way removed from HS now and still very raw. Saying someone couldn’t coach Curry is a point in their favor, not against.

    “I’m not saying Skiles is to blame for the mess Curry made of his career, I’m just saying he didn’t help (and if you’re looking to rebuild a team with young players it’d be nice to have a coach that did help.)”

    Curry played as well for Skiles as for any other coach, ever. He won more games in a season with Skiles than any other coach, by far. I don’t see how he didn’t help. If Eddy were a free agent before Skiles got there I really doubt he gets 6 yrs 60 mill or whatever ridiculous amount Isiah gave him.

    “And there’s a perception in Chicago that having Skiles as a coach early in their careers left Deng, Hinrich, and Duhon as overly tentative players.”

    Exactly, a “perception.” You’re buying 100% into his reputation in the media. What I’m arguing is that his reputation is due as much to timing as reality. That’s my main point: he’s a good coach overall (defensively definitely), and a lot of his career can be explained by timing.

    “But the feeling remains that Skiles rode guys too hard and was unwilling to sacrifice a few wins in the short-term for greater long-term success.”

    He may ride them too hard, I have no idea. Of course, with the money they make I think they should suck it up.
    The thing I don’t understand is the long-term success. None of his players have had significantly more success after he left (besides Marion).
    The Bulls babied Eddy and Tyson for the 2.5 years before Skiles arrived, and it didn’t really work. He got their, kicked them square in the ass, and they started moving. If anything, I think he did them a big favor. Overall I just don’t think the coach has that much to do with player development. The guy who puts in the work would usually do it either way, and the guy who cops and attitude and whines about his coach will do that with any coach.

  78. Ted Nelson

    “you could say the Cavs have a bit easier schedule playing in the East (weak sauce I know).”

    Agree 100%. That’s why I think the Lakers are the best team in the NBA and my favorites to win it all, beating the Cavs or whoever the East throws at them.

    “LBJ= I am good enough to win

    Kobe= I will win”

    I would say:

    Kobe= I will win because I play on the best team

    LeBron= I am the best and my team is one of the best teams because of me

    And I always stick up for the Cavs’ supporting cast, I just think LeBron has more to do with why they’re as good as they are than Kobe.

  79. taggart4800

    @109
    You are right, that is a very interesting article. It also strikes me as worrying, after reading that the knicks are rumoured to be in the hunt for Johnson (David Aldrige on NBA.com). Great piece though.
    Aside from the main guys the pair i would most like to see would be Nowitzki and Gay i suppose. This said they would have to leave enough on the table for others to be signed if they did arrive. If those two cannot win it all with their current rosters, how are they going to fare with the Knicks? Not to well me thinks. Even if you nabbed Ginobli aswell, does that make us better than the current Spurs/Cavs/Magic/ Celtics etc? I suppose we would be in the conversation at least.

  80. Ted Nelson

    DS,

    I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m just pointing out that there are a lot of reasons it might not happen. For starters, it assumes the Knicks can actually sign any of the players you mention. It also depends what a team’s needs are and what they think of Gallo/Douglas.

    For Boozer, like I’ve said, I don’t do it as the Knicks.

    For Bosh or Wade, I would if I’m the Knicks. The other team, though, can tell the Knicks they want Gallo straight-up, no Curry. If the free agent is insisting he gets the home-town 6 yr contract the Knicks have no leverage to force Curry down their throats.

  81. DS

    Ted –
    Agreed on all points. I personally don’t think it’s going to be easy to sign one, let alone two superstars.

    What I was missing was that the Knicks can give up Gallo w/o making the other team take Curry because they will have the cap room. *BUT if the Free Agent is willing to work WITH the Knicks he can act like he’s willing to sign with the Knicks for 5 years… at which point the Knicks can say “we’ll sign Bosh for 5 years if we have to and leave you w/ nothing, or if you’re willing to take Curry off our hands we can give you Gallinari.”

  82. Thomas B. Post author

    @115 Ted
    “I would say:

    Kobe= I will win because I play on the best team

    LeBron= I am the best and my team is one of the best teams because of me”

    So which of those describes Jordan?

    Totally unfair to say about Kobe as he was just a cold blooded when the Lakers were a 7th seed (not the best team) against the 2 seed Suns. Game 4 he ties the game on a super difficult running layup, then iwins the game with a buzzer pull up. When you need to a shot to win the game, I’m going with Kobe.

  83. Ted Nelson

    Definitely would be ideal to get rid of that contract from the Knicks perspective, don’t know if it’s a no-brainer to give up (cheap) assets/rotation players to do it. Depends how you feel about Gallo/Chandler/Douglas and what you can replace them with.

  84. Ted Nelson

    Thomas,

    He’s hit a lot of memorable buzzer beaters in part because he’s been on such good teams and in part because he is the team’s closer. Playing on 2 separate GREAT teams is going to put the best scorer in a position to take a lot of clutch shots. They win a lot of games and they play a lot of tight playoff series.
    Yes, he’s a HOF player and that’s why he’s asked to take those shots and a big part of why his teams have been so good. I just don’t think he’s nearly the best player in the league and I don’t think he ever has been. He was not the best player on his team until a few years ago. Even now Pau and Bynum may be right on his heels; though, I would say he’s better. His best individual season corresponds with his worst team season, so that takes a bit away from calling him best player in 05-06.

    When you need to win a game, I’m going with LeBron. (And 5-10 other guys before Kobe, too.)
    Your point was not originally that Kobe is clutch, but that he is so incredibly clutch that he should be league MVP. I strongly disagree.

  85. Thomas B. Post author

    @122
    You say tomato
    I say tomahto
    You say potato
    I say potat-o
    Tomato, Tomahto, Potato, Patat-o
    Let’s call the whole thing off.

  86. Ted Nelson

    MJ= I am the best and I play on the best team.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jordami01&y1=1998&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010&p3=jamesle01&y3=2010

    Kobe is the worst player of the 3 across the board (3P% better, but overall efficiency worse). He’s not far behind, but decidedly worse. The one thing he has on LeBron is longevity, but LeBron is better now than Kobe has ever been and could get even better since he’s in his 25 year old season. (He could also break his neck and never walk again and quite and join Bison Dele and Dave Chapelle in Africa… I have no idea.) Kobe also has the rings, but if he had never played with Shaq or Pau/Bynum he would most likely not.

    (Note: That’s Jordan with the Bulls only.)

  87. nicos

    Ted- Last word on Skiles (I promise!)- No one is more responsible for his perception in the media than Skiles himself via his behavior both on the bench and in press conferences (at least during his tenure in Chicago). I think it’s possible to be a disciplinarian without the histrionics (eye-rolling, open exasperation, killing your own guys to the media, etc…). And maybe he’s learned from his experience in Chicago (like I think Nate McMillan learned from his experience in Seattle) and he’ll do a better job of keeping things in house- as I said he seems to be doing a good job in Milwaukee.

  88. greatscott

    haha! I believe you’re looking for knickscandonowrong.net, good luck with that.

    Or a place without comments such as punch this guy in the face, that guy in the face, insults because players they like are no longer here, or they don’t like Italians, etc.

  89. greatscott

    haha! I believe you’re looking for knickscandonowrong.net, good luck with that.

    Or a place without comments such as punch this guy in the face, that guy in the face, insults because players they like are no longer here, or they don’t like Italians, David Lee, etc.

  90. Thomas B. Post author

    @126

    There is very little you can do about the negative vibes. Try to ignore it best you can (if only I could take my own advice) if it bothers you. It took me two years to figure out that arguing with people here wont change them.

    And really, who cares what some faceless guy who isnt even really named Thomas thinks?

  91. iserp

    http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT7.HTM

    Ted,
    Bryant has better percentages in jump shots (both 2pt and 3pt), even though he takes many more of them than Lebron James. James makes up for it because he scores a lot inside; which would a stupid thing for Bryant to do, since he has already Gasol and Bynum there, it is not his role, and his frame is not suited for it.

    I read somewhere defending Kobe from his ‘poor’ PER that in the triangle offense, assists are more shared among the team, since the bigs are given a lot of the responsability of ball-handling. Also, Kobe is a good defender, which is hardly represented on statistics.

    So, for me, Kobe is more valuable to the lakers than Lebron could be. Lebron is a 1-man team in itself, he is capable of doing everything. But his inside scoring would be redundant on the lakers while his ‘poor’ outside scoring would hurt the team. It is difficult to valorate how would perform his ballhandling in the triangle offense, but i don’t think it would be much better.

    All in all, Lebron and Kobe are different players, but i think that Lebron is more like a Jack-of-all-trades in a team built around him that somewhat inflates his statistics. Meanwhile Kobe is a piece (and not the only one) in a team built around Phil Jackson’s triangle offense. And yes, i believe the Lakers are the better team and all the quality players they have will make a very big difference in the playoffs.

    Rant just to say that statistics are not everything. I don’t know if that makes Kobe MVP; but saying you would take 5-10 guys ahead of him…

  92. BigBlueAL

    Lebron’s inside scoring is all due to his driving. His inside scoring would not be redundant with the Lakers or any team because he wouldnt be taking up space from the other bigs. Shaq’s presence hasnt exactly made Lebron’s inside scoring redundant this season.

    I love Kobe as much as anyone but right now its not even close anymore, Lebron is the best player in the NBA and will be for the next few years in a landslide.

  93. Ted Nelson

    iserp,

    We’re not debating whether Kobe is a good, great, or HOF player. You’ll get no disagreement here. The original point was that Kobe Bryant is the most valuable player to his team of all the players in the NBA. To figure that out you might first ask yourself who is the best player in the league. You might ask yourself

    In 05-06 Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm split the C duties for the Lakers and Kobe’s ast/36 were the lowest they’ve been since he’s been allowed to legally drink in the US.

    LeBron’s TS% is 61% and Kobe’s is 55%. That’s roughly the difference in scoring efficiency between David Lee and Al Harrington.

    Kobe and LeBron were both 1st Team All-Defense. It is hard to quantify, but I also think it’s hard to claim Kobe has a huge advantage there. LeBron is a better shot blocker and rebounder, gets as many steals. Both play on good defensive teams.

    I feel 100% convinced that LeBron James is a superior basketball player to Kobe Bryant. You can blame it on whatever you want, but Bryant has never come close to LeBron statistically. I have no problem saying I would take 5-10 guys ahead of him as league MVP. LeBron is better and more valuable to his team. Durant is as good or better and more valuable to his team (which otherwise is pitiful offensively). Paul is having a worse season than last season, but still right there and more valuable to his team (he’s missed enough time that he’s probably out of the running). Howard = BEAST. Wade I would put even with Kobe (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2010&p2=wadedw01&y2=2010) and Bosh (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=boshch01&y1=2010&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010). Bosh is probably more valuable offensively, but less so defensively. I might put Kobe a bit ahead of Roy (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2010&p2=roybr01&y2=2010). Nash is a far lower volume scorer, but WAY more efficient and assists on fully 1/2 of the Suns baskets when he’s on the floor (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nashst01&y1=2010&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010). Melo is having a bad year, but is still right there (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2010&p2=anthoca01&y2=2010)

    What’s ridiculous about that? Because Kobe has a reputation as amazing and has won a lot it’s disrespectful to say he’s not even one of the top 5 players in the NBA? Because he’s famous and cocky? Because he hits big shots? I have no problem saying Kobe is not one of the top 5 players in the NBA. He may or may not be one of the top 10. To me calling Kobe the best player in the NBA is the rough equivalent of calling Derek Jeter the best player in the MLB.

  94. Roadking

    Ted, love reading your comments big time. I’m not a Kobe fan. However, I do have trouble with him not being top 10 in NBA, primarily because his will power and combativeness/competitiveness. I disagree with that point. Nevertheless, in general, I go with LBJ……..by far. Not only his age. I think LBJ is a player that trains the other guys by the way he executes. His passing and overall concept of the game comes through to his team mates. Very rare trait. He’s a little like Steve Nash in that sense. His physical presence is also very intimidating. I also think he’s a brilliant player. While Kobe is an amazing talent, there is not the same synergy with the TEAM. Query: If you guys were playing for the Knicks, and would not be displaced by either player, who would you prefer to play with? Be honest. I’m very old school, but it would be LBJ and, it would not be a close call.

  95. Ted Nelson

    Roadking,

    Thanks.

    I think Kobe is right around top 5, especially because of his defense… and the competitiveness you mention helps but is bared out in the stats. I think you can make an argument for him as being as high as #2, I personally don’t really buy that though. I really don’t think he’s top 3 and Durant might make that not top 4. My main points are that LeBron is appreciably better than Kobe and that there are a lot of guys bunched in that 2-6 or 7 or 8 or maybe even 10 area that aren’t that easy to segregate. I think you can make an argument that Kobe is closer to 10 than 5, but can also do the opposite.
    I’m really not that big on saying who THE best player is, but in this case I think it’s clear who the better player is (LeBron > Kobe). I could see an argument for Dwight Howard being better than LeBron since he’s a dominant bigman on both sides of the ball. It becomes a bit of a positional value discussion then. I’ll take LeBron though, I think.

    Kobe v. Wade, that’s a discussion that might be more worth having. Kobe v. Durant or Melo also close to me.

    To answer your final Q: I would prefer LeBron. Mostly because I think all else equal he gives his team a better chance to win. LeBron also seems like he’d be easier to get along with.

    I think career wise Ray Allen is closer to Kobe (and certainly Ginobili is… though not in terms of longevity) than Kobe is to LeBron… especially once LeBron’s gone through his prime years and has 14 years in the league like those two.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=allenra02&y1=2010&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010&p3=jamesle01&y3=2010

Comments are closed.