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Tuesday, November 25, 2014

2009 NBA Playoff Open Thread (Thursday Games)

I know this is late, but if anyone’s around have at it…

Celtics @ Bulls 8:00EDT
Spurs @ Mavs 8:30EDT
Jazz @ Lakers 10:30EDT

17 comments on “2009 NBA Playoff Open Thread (Thursday Games)

  1. David Crockett

    Okay, so I haven’t watched much Chicago this year. I’m not feeling Joakim Noah as much as some. He rebounds, but he’s not much of a finisher. To my mind that offsets a guys value a tad when he has no game outside 5 feet. He gets a bunch of shots blocked (23% of his close shots). He’s not a bad passer, but meh. Of all the guys that we “could” have had I don’t know that we missed out on much there.

    Maybe I’m all sour grapes tonight, but he strikes me as pretty pedestrian. Tyrus Thomas I didn’t think would develop that 15 foot jump shot as soon as he has. So you never know whether Noah might develop but I don’t see the skillset.

  2. David Crockett

    Chicago just can’t get out of its own way so far tonight. Six minutes left in the first half and they have double digit turnovers — most of the “weak with the ball” variety.

  3. tastycakes

    Didn’t watch the games, but was at a bar and noticed this table of 3 folks in Spurs jerseys looking depressed, a sight that always makes me smile inside.

    Rondo rules. A travesty that he wasn’t an all-star this year, IMO.

    Scary to see that Kobe has to shoot 5-26 (or whatever it was) for the Lakers to lose.

  4. BK

    Hard to take away much of anything from tonight’s games — two ugly blowouts and a flukish (though very exciting) win by an outmanned Jazz team. Boozer’s probably very happy about getting his value up after weeks of mediocre play since coming back from his injury.

    But yeah, right now Rondo looks like one of the best players in the playoffs to date, and one of the most consistent point guards in a field of great ones.

  5. jon abbey

    yeah, Noah and Thomas have their strengths, but nothing worth crying about. I still think there’s a group of stat-based fans who think teams would ideally be made up of all PFs, but that doesn’t exactly work in reality.

    now, drafting a guy who no one else had pegged to go in the top 50 over Rajon Rondo who seems to get better every single game, that’s frustrating.

  6. d-mar

    I see Noah having the same career path as Jared Jeffries.

    Vecsey makes a good point ( a rarity) in the Post today about the announcers never mentioning the absence of Deng vs. the constant shots of Garnett spewing the f— bomb after every basket.

  7. Caleb

    “I see Noah having the same career path as Jared Jeffries.”

    ?????????????

    Noah is one of the best rebounders in the league, whereas Jeffries, uh…

    Noah is an excellent defender – a shotblocking center who can guard the perimeter, whereas Jeffries is used for occasional freak defensive matchups.

    Noah is ok on offense – good passer, not much variety but decent efficiency – whereas Jeffries might be the worst offensive player in the league.

    I gotta say – I am a big Noah fan. Defensive players are always underrated, and the rest of his game is ok, too.

    Thomas – I’d say about the same thing, except he’s only 6’8 instead of 7 feet tall, and has a bad habit of taking jumpers.

    Neither one will ever be a superstar but Noah is a guy who would fit on any team – when I think of our lack of a center, and watch him, it makes me want to cry.

    re: Rondo, I agree — it’s feeble consolation that 18 or 19 teams made the same mistake. And Balkman is probably one of the best 20 players in that draft… but still. Without the Curry trade, no free-agent signings and 20/20 hindsight:

    Rondo
    Roy
    Gallinari or someone
    Lee
    Bynum

    Nate & Noah off the bench… sheesh.

    Those 7 players were picked #21, 6, 6, 30, 10, 21 & 9, respectively. Good picks but not like you had to win the lottery.

    It’s not realistic to think you’d hit every one, but goes to show what one or two great draft picks can do for a franchise. That’s why you guard draft picks with your life – and do whatever you can to get extras.

  8. Owen

    I agree about the lack of attention to Deng’s absence.

    Excellent post Caleb. Noah looks great. He and JJ have literally nothing to do with each other. KB mentioned a while back that a Lee for Noah deal would have been intriguing. Didn’t like the idea back then, but when you throw in cap implications, it starts to make sense.

    The newest Wages of Wins post is on our old friend Jamal Crawford…

    http://dberri.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/jamal-crawford-is-unlucky/

  9. teddd

    I see Noah having the same career path as Jared Jeffries.

    Noah is already significantly better than Jeffries has ever been and he plays a different position. So I don’t see that.

    Bill Simmons compared Noah to MArcus Camby this week and I think there’s a lot of similarities in that. They’re both very athletic without much offensive skill but can rebound, block shots and guard the rim. And before people start saying that Camby is a much better rebounder they should look at his rebounding rates from the early years when he wasn’t as bulky. Noah with his energy and a little more meat on his frame will likely improve his rebounding rate over time as well.

  10. Ted Nelson

    Jon,

    I understand your yearnings for Rondo, but on a team with no interior D it’s hard to dismiss missing out on a pair of 22/23 year old interior defenders so easily. Rondo does look like the best player of the 3 at this point. Still, when I consider that in Rondo’s stead the Knicks got a strong role player (who they proceeded to give away) and in Thomas/Noah’s stead they got Eddy Curry… it’s hard to say which one I regret more. Not that they were mutually exclusive, as the Knicks might have never traded Curry and still been in a position to draft or trade-in for Rondo.

    I agree with Caleb, Owen, and teddd that Noah is a really solid prospect. It’s a couple years down the road, but I wouldn’t mind seeing the Knicks take a run at him when Curry’s contract comes off the books. Who knows how the roster will look at that point, but a 5 who defends/scores efficiently/passes could be a great piece.

  11. d-mar

    Ok, I’ll back off my Noah-Jeffries comparison. I just think the guy is very limited, and to compare him to Camby is an insult to Camby. Has Noah ever attempted (or made) an outside shot? Not that Camby is a deadye, but he can make an open 10 footer. And he’s a MUCH better shot blocker than Noah. Plus, I didn’t see game 3, but in game 2 Perkins totally abused Noah on the boards, constantly getting rebounds over him. He also missed a point blank layup at a critical point in the game (thus prompting my Jeffries comparison) I may be in the minority here, but I wouldn’t give up much to get the guy.

  12. jon abbey

    do you guys really not see how dreadful Noah is in terms of finishing? how he fumbles the ball away constantly? how Chicago has so little post presence on offense with him and Thomas in the game that they have to resort to the corpse of Brad Miller?

    Noah is definitely a good role player, but nothing more than that, at least right now.

  13. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger)

    yeah, Noah and Thomas have their strengths, but nothing worth crying about. I still think there’s a group of stat-based fans who think teams would ideally be made up of all PFs, but that doesn’t exactly work in reality.

    And for every one of those there are 100 non-stat guys that think teams would ideally be made up of guys who can create shots regardless of efficiency. Marbury, Crawford, Curry, and Zach Randolph – that’s an awesome offense – they can all create shots!

    In reality I think the ratio might be closer to 1000000:1. And remember not all stat guys buy into the WOW theory of defensive rebounding = teh bomb. (like myself).

  14. jon abbey

    you’ve got a point, but I think there are fewer of those each year, even if there’s a long way to go.

    much like MLB has gradually begun to recognize the importance of defense in relation to offense over the past few years, people are gradually realizing that scoring on an individual basis is overrated, at least somewhat. for instance, someone like Iverson is going to have trouble finding a job this summer, I think, between what he brings to the table to help a team and what he’s going to expect in terms of salary.

  15. Z
    And for every one of those there are 100 non-stat guys that think teams would ideally be made up of guys who can create shots regardless of efficiency. Marbury, Crawford, Curry, and Zach Randolph – that’s an awesome offense – they can all create shots!

    And somewhere in the middle lie the great basketball minds…

    As for Iverson, I think this off-season will be a fascinating one. With the economy in the toilet, half the teams over the luxury tax line, and almost everybody over the salary cap, where does a guy like Iverson land? On paper his agent must think he has a great case for a nice new contract (when was the last time a player coming off of 10 straight all star appearances had to take an 80% pay cut just to stay in the league??); but in reality, like Jon says, who is going to spend what money they have on a guy like Iverson?

    Because of economic constraints, the summer of 2009 could force teams to finally make prudent commitments– something that has been largely non-existent in American sports for decades. As a result the quality of competition could rise, giving way to a new era of NBA economic philosophy.

    As KB has said, the teams that sell the most tickets are the teams that win. Maybe 2009 will force teams to realize that the hard way, and the days of giving the Iverson, Marbury, Randolph, Curry, Crawfords of the world $100s of millions of dollars will end.

    Maybe?

    Just a chance?

  16. Ted Nelson

    “Noah is definitely a good role player, but nothing more than that, at least right now.”

    Agreed. Interior defense, rebounding, efficient low volume scoring, and promising passing makes for a pretty valuable role, though. The finishing skills could be a red flag (don’t know if that’s exactly the right way to describe it as he rarely gets his dunks blocked), but he’s still managed a TS% of .567 through two NBA seasons (.594 this season).

    —————————————————————-

    Here’s a Camby/Noah comparison through two seasons if anyone is interested:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&=c&p1=cambyma01&y1=1998&=n&p2=noahjo01&y2=2009&=&=

    Some pretty striking differences: Camby was a medium to high volume/low efficiency scorer while Noah is a low volume/high efficiency scorer (their efficiencies were actually pretty similar as rookies, then took huge jumps in opposite directions), Camby was a weak rebounder and great shot blocker while Noah has been a strong rebounder and solid shot blocker. Both respectable passers, Camby better. Close to identical steal numbers.

    Overall I can see a comparison between the two, but it’s not that strong. Camby made huge strides in rebounding and scoring efficiency when he got to NY, two areas where Noah has been strong. Camby improved his passing, a pattern seen with most good passing bigs and I fully expect Noah to follow. Noah has to cut his turnovers and work on his scoring/not get his “close” shots blocked. I would say that Noah’s mission is probably easier than Camby’s was: I would guess that Camby is one of the few bigs out there who corrected both scoring efficiency and rebounding problems to the degree he did (he did have a horrible sophomore slump which really slanted his numbers through two seasons).

    I think Noah’s passing/ball-handling will improve, as it was a real selling point for him coming into the draft. If his usage-rate bounces back to around 14, 15 next season (15.6 as a rookie) I don’t see his low volume scoring as a problem at all. Classic extremely low-volume scorer like Bowen and Wallace are in the 11 range.

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