Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Thursday, November 27, 2014

2008 Thread: Kings @ Knicks 1/2/2008

For your pre-game, in-game, and post-game ranting pleasure…

59 comments on “2008 Thread: Kings @ Knicks 1/2/2008

  1. Sly Williams

    Kings are without Artest, KevMartin, and Bibby. Their top 2 scorers (PPG) eligible for this game are John Salmons and Beno Udrih.
    The Knicks have an easy one to start the year.

  2. Sly Williams

    I can’t find an easier game left on the schedule for the Knicks, except maybe back-to-back games like 1/15 vs. the Bullets (sorry, the Whiz for younger fans)
    You are right that the Knicks have no easy games, they are only 2-4 as favorite.

  3. Thomas B.

    Unless the Knick’s are playing Hofstra, then there are no easy games. This team has shown that they can lose to any team in the NBA.

  4. Alec

    As a Knick fan living in DC and having season tickets to the Wiz, I take offense to your comment Mr Sly Williams. They are a 500 team without Gilbert and much better with him. The Wiz aren’t an easy game

  5. Ess-dog

    Hey K, just wonderin how many games the Knicks have had Zeke’s intended opening day lineup starting so far this year? That would be Stephon, Q/Jamal (not sure which was named starter), Jeffries, Curry and Randolph? At this point, he should probably just stay with these thugs. Lee’s great, but is he really going to salvage the season? No way. Fact is, the opening day lineup isn’t awful if playing to their potential: just no better than an 8th seed. I think that’s why everyone wants to lose big this year, because we all see the potential is no greater than that. The Knicks need to upgrade at every single position. They have hopes at the forward positions for the future, but that’s about it. That being said, let’s mess it up as much as possible and finally draft a game-breaker for next year. Oh, and fire the coach. These players aren’t learning anything!

  6. T-Mart

    Can someone tell me when this Quentin Richardson nightmare is going to end. Can anyone argue any other player is our weakest link right now given the amount of playing time he is receiving??? (not including the occasional Isiah Thomas brain-fart resulting in Malik Rose getting 26 minutes)

  7. T-Mart

    Again I understand people need to shoot out of slumps, but this is beyond ridiculous. If hes going to continue hoisting up 3s when hes shooting 29%, he should be removed from the game immediately everytime he attempts to have another 1-5 from 3 shooting performance.

  8. Brian Cronin

    Gotta give them credit.

    They somehow manage to pull out a new “Worst loss of the season” each time.

  9. Thomas B.

    Well so much for the easy game tonight.

    Bench Q
    Bench Z-Bo
    Start Balkman
    Start Lee

    David Lee is the best thing this team has. Unfortunately that isnt saying much.

  10. jersey knicks

    Cronin, so true. How many times have we heard the phrase “worst loss of the season”? You guys are all NBA fans, I assume, can you think of any franchise in the last ten years that got their butts kicked over and over, game after game? Sure, teams like the Grizz, last year’s Celts, etc. have lost 50-60+ games, but they were competitive more often than not and just lacked talent. I have never seen anything like this as a fan of any sport. It is truly mind boggling and an absolute disgrace to behold.

  11. big baby

    I’d love to have gone to a Knick game while home from college. Unfortunately, they’re just as likely to get blown out as they are to win. No way I’d waste my money on this garbage.

    Looking at the box score, DLee and Balkman were both +10. Good thing Balkman has been buried on the bench. This team needs a purge of biblical proportions. I’d much rather try my luck with a starting 5 of Nate, Balkman, DLee and whoever else that isn’t Q/Stephon/Curry.

  12. jon abbey

    yeah, I was going to say it always makes me laugh to read in the paper “this is the low point”. um, what makes you think that? THE SHIP BE SINKING!

  13. Get More Athletic

    They really totally stink, The time will come soon when they just become irrelevant as opposed to inflammatory

  14. Tike Tibby

    I tried to figure out what the NBA record was for double digit losses in a season but couldn’t find either a site with this list or a spreadsheet with the scores of every game. Any ideas?

    Knicks are at 15 double digit losses for the season. I think Minny has 13.

  15. Owen

    What a box score, saw the highlights, this must have been a doozy. Curry notched another game with more turnovers than rebounds, and 4-11 from the line. Thats a 10-17 with fatal flaws. That said, you can’t fault him for putting the ball in the hoop. Z-bo was a -25 in 17 minutes. Noticed Jeffries was in the positive along with Lee and Balkman. His play seems to have come on off late….

    In other news, Bill Simmons has a a new column out, its about “chemacterility.” Has a fair bit to say about the Knicks…

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080102&sportCat=nba

  16. jon abbey

    Owen, I have to say that you were totally right about Curry last year, apologies for giving you so much shit. I thought at the time you were overdoing it, but you were dead on, kudos.

    on the bright side (HA!), at least Isiah remembered that he’s allowed to put Wilson Chandler in the game.

  17. Johnny Twisto

    “Start Balkman”

    Apologies if this has been covered recently….has anyone figured out if Balkman is hurt? Or perhaps raped Dolan’s favorite hooker? Or is it completely a case of our peerless leader being a COMPLETE MORON IDIOT FUCKHOLE? Before tonight, Balkman played 62 minutes in 10 games since 12/10, while the team went 2-8.

    “Fire Isiah. I don’t want him picking our draft pick.”

    Cue the apologists saying that although Isiah has proven to be a complete fucking imbecile in every other facet of coaching and management, he’s actually an incredible drafter, because he tripped over Tracy McGrady and some white boy he gives 20 minutes a game.

    Does it get any worse than the first half of this game? I called my dad in the 2nd quarter and said this is the worst shit I’ve ever seen. He had just gotten off the phone with his brother, saying the same thing. I’m so glad Jughead Jeffries is still starting. The guy can’t even play D, isn’t that what he’s on the team for? Malik Rose in the 1st period? FUCK YOU YOU SMILING WEASEL FUCK. Wilson Chandler doesn’t know if he’ll play again before the next lunar eclipse, so he feels compelled to shoot every time he touches the ball. Breen is shocked by Fat Eddy’s “strange” line of 20 points, 1 reb, and atrocious defense, as if that isn’t excactly what he’s done in every game of his wasted career. I’m sure the next step is for Muppet Collins to go back in the rotation for 25 mins/game. Every time they show Thomas talking about leaving “a legacy”…shit, every time they show him rubbing his face and arching his disgusting eyebrow, I want to reach through the screen and strangle him. I hope to read in the paper that he has been boiled in acid. I will laugh. Until then, lots of crying. And screaming at the TV.

  18. Round Mound of Rebounds

    If anyone thought Eddie Curry was any good then you must be under the age of 15. Watch a real center play defense and rebound like Patrick Ewing. Stop playing video games and start watching basketball…

  19. Danny

    Knicks 2007 Report Card (A to Z): Coach Isiah Thomas

    September 10th, 2007

    “In the NBA the great coaches are few & far in between, and at the bottom there is a rotating door of assistants and college coaches who fail miserably. That the Knicks improved more than the average team in their situation, shows that Thomas did a fair job.

    KnickerBlogger’s Grade: C+”

    lol.

  20. Johnny Twisto

    Thomas would sure nuff be part of the rotating door…if he wasn’t his own damn boss. UGH

  21. jon abbey

    “I believe that one day we will win a championship here,” Thomas said before the game. “And I believe a couple of these guys will be a part of that. And I believe I’ll be a part of that.”-January 2, 2008

    amazing.

  22. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Danny – notice the past tense in that statement. After the Larry Brown debacle, Isiah did do a fair job as a coach last year. Was it Casey Stengel that said something to the affect of – it’s amazing how you can go from a genius to an idiot? Not that Isiah Thomas was ever an genius…

  23. Brian Cronin

    You can rip Isiah for all his bad moves, and there are plenty, but the guy is a good drafter.

    Doesn’t make him a good coach. Doesn’t make him a good GM.

    But he’s still a good drafter. The Knicks’ two best players are late first round draft picks by Thomas, for crying out loud!

    Admitting the guy drafts well doesn’t mean you’re saying he’s a good GM. His negatives far outweigh his positive (note the singular ;)).

  24. Brian Cronin

    Danny – notice the past tense in that statement. After the Larry Brown debacle, Isiah did do a fair job as a coach last year. Was it Casey Stengel that said something to the affect of – it’s amazing how you can go from a genius to an idiot? Not that Isiah Thomas was ever an genius…

    Yeah, your piece was clearly about the job Isiah did LAST season, so it is ridiculous to hold it off like you were making a prediction.

  25. Joseph Lee

    Mike K, have you becomes so discouraged this season that you’ve stopped posting?

    I guess there is no fun in beating a dead horse.

    I am at a loss for words this season.

  26. Danny

    One of the other posters said he was overly generous with the grade. Now with this season underway I was just searching through old posts and thought it funny. Calm down. We are all good.

  27. Ray

    I got home late and turned on the game when Sac was pulling away in the 3rd quarter and couldnt take it any more. At least Chandler got some game time in. Then I switched over to Supernanny. At least it was more entertaining.

  28. flitzy

    If my senile grandmother who cannot see nor hear much anymore was coaching this team, she would be 8 games worse than isiah at worst. You can literally just put anyone in there. As a contest for the rest of the season, they should have a fan contest where u get to coach the knicks for a game…if you win 1, u stay on, win 2, u get a 10 day cnotract, win 3 in a row and you get 4 years/$81 million and a $15 million signing bonus.

  29. jon abbey

    “You can rip Isiah for all his bad moves, and there are plenty, but the guy is a good drafter.”

    I’m not so sure about even this anymore when we easily could have had Rondo/Balkman instead of Balkman/Collins, Bynum instead of Frye, Jarrett Jack instead of Nate. these three guys went 1, 2, and 1 spots after our picks respectively, so that’s hardly much of a stretch, and think how much better our team would look now.

  30. JK47

    I’m not so sure about even this anymore when we easily could have had Rondo/Balkman instead of Balkman/Collins, Bynum instead of Frye, Jarrett Jack instead of Nate. these three guys went 1, 2, and 1 spots after our picks respectively, so that’s hardly much of a stretch, and think how much better our team would look now.

    Yes, exactly. How is the guy supposed to be such a genius talent evaluator when it comes to the draft, but such an idiot when making trades? Wasn’t it obvious to just about everybody that Eddy Curry is one of the softest players in the league? We could have had LeMarcus Aldridge. To me, trading for Curry was a dumb “draft pick.”

    Frye was a mediocre pick, Balkman was a reach, Collins was a bad pick… Okay, David Lee was a nice pick, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. Meanwhile, all these “great” players Isiah drafted can’t even crack the rotation on an 8-23 team. Don’t be fooled that Isiah is a great drafter– his idiocy is all-encompassing.

  31. flitzy

    They coulda had rondo, marcus williams, sergio rodriguez, or jordan farmar (ALL ACTUAL GOOD POINT GUARDS) over mardy collins, and than took balkman. He takes too many long shots in the draft, and of course youll hit on a few…Collins is awful, and balkman was on no ones radar. he coulda traded down to the second round and got him.

  32. retropkid

    I think the last thing Zeke wanted was to coach…he wanted to flay coaches in the media for going 8-22…he would’ve flayed a coach for not playing Balkman, his prized surprise pick…he would’ve defended all his player moves, and flayed the coach for not motivating that talent to work as a team…

    Now he shits where he eats…

  33. Brian Cronin

    They coulda had rondo, marcus williams, sergio rodriguez, or jordan farmar (ALL ACTUAL GOOD POINT GUARDS) over mardy collins, and than took balkman. He takes too many long shots in the draft, and of course youll hit on a few…Collins is awful, and balkman was on no ones radar. he coulda traded down to the second round and got him.

    This is based on the theory that the Suns were not going to take Balkman.

    Thomas felt that they were, and seeing as how they worked out Balkman, it is certainly believable, and I’d rather have Balkman over Rondo. Did the Suns even work out Rondo?

    And hell, even if that’s TRUE, you can’t pick the one bust (Collins) and say, “See! He’s a terrible drafter! I know in that same draft he picked a really good player at a crappy draft position, but dammit, he also picked a bad player – therefore, he MUST be bad!!”

    Isiah’s entire draft history (we’ll exclude Marcus Camby, because that was a gimme at the #2 position):

    Damon Stoudamire (high single digits)
    Jimmy King (early second round) (I forgot this one at first – oops!)
    Tracy McGrady (high single digits)
    Trevor Ariza (late first round)
    Channing Frye (high single digits)
    Nate Robinson (late first round – via Suns)
    David Lee (late first round)
    Renaldo Balkman (late first round)
    Mardy Collins (late first round)
    Wilson Chandler (late first round)

    And that’s it. Those are all his draft picks.

    You have one bust (two if you count Jimmy King as a bust, but do second round picks ever really count as “busts”?), one of the best players in the NBA for the past decade, one borderline All-Star, a bunch of good players (Ariza, Frye, Balkman) and two ehs (Robinson and Chandler).

    For where he was picking, that is a GOOD job. To call that a BAD draft job is just not being objective.

    There’s really only three picks there that were bad picks – Frye is a reach at the high single digits (although that’s where EVERY draft scout had him going), Collins is a bust and Robinson is a bit of a reach, too.

    Everyone else was better value than that position typically produces, with McGrady and Lee presenting TREMENDOUS upgrades over what that position typically produces (and Balkman a significant upgrade over what that position typically produces).

    You can look at it and say, “Yeah, he’s not the greatest drafter in the world.” Fine. But to look at that and say, “That’s a BAD job,” then you’re not looking at it fairly, and I’d like to think one of the hallmarks of this blog, and blogs like this, is that we’ll be fair – just look at stuff with an objective eye.

    With an objective eye, Thomas has been a good drafter.

  34. Brian Cronin

    And yes, I agree, I think Thomas really does not want to coach, for those exact reasons, retropkid.

    He is just waiting to get fired to collect his money.

  35. Ben R

    I would actually go even futher and say that Robinson was a pretty good value pick at #21. He is going to have a long career and considering alot of players picked in the 20’s fail to even finish their rookie deals, a solid offensive role player like Robinson is a good value at #21.

    As for Chandler he is still too new to make any judgement.

    So for all of Isiah’s picks in the first round every single one of them is still in the NBA, and only one, Frye, is underpreforming his draft position. Collins while not very good is still pretty average for the 29th player picked, very few make it in the NBA.

    I would agree that while maybe not an amazing drafter he is almost undisputably better than average.

    As for who he did not pick, that is unfair. Looking back you can question 95% of all draft picks.

    Isiah needs to be gone but I think attacking his draft record is just letting the terrible job he is doing everywhere else cloud peoples judgement in the one area Isiah has not failed as a GM or Coach.

  36. Brian Cronin

    Isiah needs to be gone but I think attacking his draft record is just letting the terrible job he is doing everywhere else cloud peoples judgement in the one area Isiah has not failed as a GM or Coach.

    Exactly, and I would hope that we can be better than that here.

  37. jon abbey

    well, I disagree, I think he’s been a mediocre drafter at a time when we needed a great one (due to the awful situation he inherited and the dreadful job he’s done in every other facet of the job).

  38. Brian Cronin

    well, I disagree, I think he’s been a mediocre drafter at a time when we needed a great one (due to the awful situation he inherited and the dreadful job he’s done in every other facet of the job).

    Fine, the Knicks “needed a great drafter,” and he wasn’t a great drafter.

    It doesn’t make him a BAD drafter, which is what I am arguing against.

  39. jon abbey

    no, he’s definitely not a bad drafter, so I guess we’re in agreement. I’m arguing against the occasionally held belief here that he’s not just a great drafter, but the GREATEST OF ALL TIME. when the picks immediately after yours are decidedly better players three times in a row, you don’t qualify as great, no matter how hit and miss the draft may be in general.

  40. cbrooklyn

    i think isiah is a good drafter/gm but thats it!! lets not forget that guy who drafted fredrick weiss a couple of years ago! isiah just needs to get off the damn bench and go back n the office , his coaching sucks and i think the players know that as well as the fans…

  41. L.A.

    The draft history is interesting. Brian listed 9 players. Many look good at first glance, yet not a sing one can make the follow 2 statements – A) I have not been arrested during my NBA career (Stoudamire) and B) I have won a singe playoff series in my career(all the rest). McGrady is the most striking example, maybe in the history of the NBA, to be such an elite player who has never one a single playoff series.

    My point is that maybe Isiah’s draft history is very much like his trades and free agent signings. He gets guys who put up numbers or seem pretty good on some level(see Marbury, Crawford, Curry, Randolph) but can never win anything significant.

  42. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    I, KnickerBlogger, take back the following statement: “I might even dare say he’s possibly the best drafter of all time.” Even though I qualified it with a “might” and “possibly”, I believe that there is zero chance that Isiah is the best drafter of all time.

    BC – Don’t forget that Isiah drafted Jimmy King (2nd round).

  43. jon abbey

    heh, I didn’t remember that was you, Mike, but thanks.

    with the blossoming of Bynum and Rondo this year (and NY’s corresponding massive holes at C and PG), I think Isiah’s draft record has taken a couple of pretty sizable hits, just another thing that’s gone wrong in this perfect storm from hell we’ve suffered through so far this season.

  44. Sly Williams

    I call Camby a failed pick. Why? Because the draft was so strong, he was the 8-12th best player chosen.
    Better than Camby were: Iverson; Kobe; Marbury; Ray Allen; Steve Nash; Jermaine O’Neal; Ilgauskas. That’s 7. Stojankovic; Antoine Walker – about the same.
    Abdur-Rahim and Dampier would have been acceptable. Picking the 8-12th best player of the top 20, with the #2 pick, is a miss.

    McGrady was projected as a 6 or 7 pick, and Isiah took him 9th. This pick dropped into his lap because a few teams didn’t want to gamble. An example of the projected pick of McGrady is from Hubie Brown a minute after TG was drafted (see 1:55 of this video.)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk-ac0W7VJY

    I am unconvinced that Isiah is a good drafter.

  45. Patrick Ewing

    Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Said:
    January 3rd, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    I, KnickerBlogger, take back the following statement: “I might even dare say he’s possibly the best drafter of all time.”

    Thank you.

  46. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Sly – Kobe and Nash are better than Camby. Iverson depends on where you sit on the possession fence. Ray Allen, and Jermaine O’Neal – possibly equal. Ilgauskas – I don’t think so. Stojakovic, ‘Toine, Shareef, Dampier – Not even close.

    Unless you’re taking away points for games missed due to injury, but personally I’d rather have a great player for a shorter period of time instead of a good player for a long period of time.

  47. Nick

    I don’t see how you can look at the picks and get so excited. Only McGrady is a multiple time all-star. After that only Stoudamire has even been a starter for more than one full season and he peaked as a rookie it seems. Lee, Frye and sometimes Ariza, Balkman and Robinson are regular rotation players with only Lee looking like he will be in anyone’s top 8 consistently through his career. Is that all that is expected is to me a back of the rotation bench guy for a non-lottery pick?

  48. Sly Williams

    I was using PER from basketball reference as a quick measure. Take Ilgauskas, who surprisingly has a higher career PER than Camby (19.4-18.3). (perhaps also surprisingly, Camby has played more NBA games)
    Stojankovic has the same PER, 18.3. Iverson and Allen are in the 20’s. O’Neal has a higher PER including his 4 years in Portland, much higher in Indiana.
    I think that if any of these 12 players were chosen by Isiah, it would have been a decent player, even if he didn’t choose the best or worst.

    You bring up an interesting point about missed games. I would also choose the player with a higher peak, as long as that peak included complete seasons and playoffs. I am thinking about Bill Walton, the season Portland started 50-10.

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