Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, August 20, 2014

2008 Game Thread: Knicks at Boston

If the game gets boring, feel free to discuss how many centers the Nets have that are better than Eddy Curry.

193 comments on “2008 Game Thread: Knicks at Boston

  1. Owen

    I don’t know how the Diop discussion got started but that would be a nice addition.

    I can’t believe how quickly Eddy Curry got an offensive foul in this game.

    How does Rajon Rondo get so many rebounds? Eddy Curry is only averaging 1 rebound more per 36 than Rondo, that’s one reason.

  2. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    I’m screaming at my TV for the last five minutes, begging Isiah to put Balkman and Lee in the game.

    My favorite Gus Johnson call so far:
    “Nice defense by Randolph to get the steal”, after the ball hit Randolph int he back of the head.

    And it’s nice to have Andariese doing color – esp. for the 10-15 moments when he’ll start festishistically babbling about the moves/muscles/body of various players. E.g. “Nice move to the baseline by BIG Eddy!”

  3. tastycakes

    I turned on the game a few minutes ago (on league pass) and literally the first thing out of Tommy Heinsohn’s mouth is a bunch of crap about how Rondo is on the level of .. wait for it .. Nash, Stockton, and Kidd. Are you fucking kidding me?

    I mean, I’ve got the dude on my fantasy team, and he’s playing great ball with KG out, really stepping up. Could be an all-star someday. But Tommy Points is comparing him to MVP level players?

    Then he goes on a tirade about lane violations because Q had one called in his favor.

    I may have to puncture my ear drums to get through the half.

  4. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Speaking of Diop, anyone notice that he started 2 of the Mavs last 3 games. Talk about playing him to show his trade worth. Makes me shamefully glad Wilson Chandler stunk it up the other night.

  5. tastycakes

    BTW, watching Big Baby match up against Duncan this weekend, dude is a legit NBA player. Wish we had drafted him (everybody whiffed on that one). Of course, he would have put the Knicks body fat index over the league maximum, so I understand why we drafted Wilson Chandler instead.

  6. tastycakes

    Avenging the “Boston Massacre.” I like it. Celtics completely oblivious of the clock on the last possession of the quarter.. they know they basically need to play one good quarter against us to win.

  7. T-Mart

    Nate Robinson has not been “practicing that lane bank shot” lol. God, there was no one in front of him, its not like he was trying to get the ball over anyone. He’ll probably get a Tommy Point for it now.

  8. Z

    “Johnny Hoops on Glen Davis: “What a wide body he is””

    Please keep posting what Gus and John are saying. I have to mute Tommy Heinsohn now or I will kill myself…

  9. Z

    Apologies to Tommy Heinsohn– he just said nice things about David Lee. “This guy is a great player.” “So why don’t they play him more?” Said Tommy: “I have no idea!”

    Maybe I won’t mute him quite yet.

  10. Ess-dog

    This roster is so flawed its ridiculous. It really is frustrating having Lee and Randolph play the same position, yet not working on the floor together. Nate’s way off probably because of the injury. Q is treating this game as his personal vendetta- pathetic. Curry, Randolph… lampposts on defense. It looks like Jamal’s thrown in the towel on this season. I think he wants out. And yet we’re still in this game.

  11. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    So the Celtics don’t have a player taller than 6’8″ left in this game, and Isiah decides to go AS SMALL as the other team. Hey, I’ve got a nifty idea – why not be say, bigger than them? And use that to the Knicks’ advantage? Nahh…never work

    And replacing Lee with Rose is like trading your Cadillac for an El Camino

  12. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    Thanks Ken – I’m going to have Grandaddy in my head all night.

    El Caminos in the west
    We’re all collapsed and futureless
    I’ll paint the words a simple wish
    For peace of mind and happiness

  13. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Johhny Hoops on Jamal: “It’s great when you don’t have extra weight on you that you can do things like that with your body!”

    John Andariese is my favorite closeted homosexual ever

  14. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    I was thinking more in terms of Jan and Dean Ween…

    “El Camino — blazing down the road
    El Camino — ah, she’s fast, never slow
    El Camino — conquest of the night
    El Camino — Aztec machine speeding to the light”

    Thanks Mike. I figured the comparison to Rose was apt – classic/iconic car, utterly useless on the road.

  15. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    I miss the days when Marv and John would do the game. Andariese would be practically drooling and I always assumed that Marv was wearing some kind of nipple clamps and/or restrictive leather undergarment underneath his suit. It would certainly account for the strained pause/grimace that comes between when he’d yelp, “Yes!..(pause/pain)…And the foul!”

    But I digress. Go Knicks!

  16. sean

    Does anybody think dallas needs another center now that Diop is gone. Dampier is a good defender but they could use Curry to come off the bench as n scoring center like Curry to get other big guys in the west (shaq, bynum etc) in foul trouble. Only problem is they dont have anybody to give at this point… So is it possible for them to trade only a first round pick? I would GLADLY take that for Eddy

  17. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Dallas just traded their picks in 2008 and 2010 for Kidd. the next one they can move is in 2012 (Ted Stepien rule). They also just moved all their expirings to get Kidd, so I can’t see any deal there.

  18. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    What a stupid foul by Fred Jones. Get Chandler and Morris in there. Is Morris even active?

  19. T-Mart

    We now have our “medium-sized lineup out there”. It’s sad when even lowest common denominator commentator banter coming from Tommy H, is obviously light years beyond any strategizing Isiah has done, like Isiah really stays up late at night formulating a “medium size lineup” lol.

  20. Brendan

    Technically, Keith Van Horn and a 2012 #1 would work for Eddy, but that’s massively, severely unlikely.

    Also, the 20 point deficit in a Knicks game is like the prize in a box of crackerjacks- it’s not too good, but you know there’s one in every one.

  21. sean

    What about the 09 pick, Cuban said van horn’s contract ownt be traded (but hes said that before about the kidd trade)

    Lets quit watching now, Zach got his double double

  22. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Only Gus Johnson could get excited announcing that Ray Allen is a Screen Actor’s Guild member

  23. Brendan

    ’09 is Stepian ruled, since you can’t trade first rounders in consecutive years.

    Devean George can invoke any darn thing he likes; there’s no chance a deal this big dies because a no-minutes scrub says so. They’ll just rejigger it in one way or another.

  24. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Johnny Hoops on Leon Powe:”"The right handed hook on the left baseline. That challenges your body!”

    (And I lost track of the number of times he’s said something to the effect of “A player with Powe’s 6’8″ ‘frame’ managing to play the center position”)

  25. Capt. Merlin

    Immediately after cutting it to 9 and pulling Lee for rose, Malik Rose goes on a personal 0-4 streak, and it’s back to 13…perhaps a correlation?

  26. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Lee’s played for the last 12 mins, he needed a breather. YetI might have played, say Balkman.

  27. T-Mart

    Knicks late in the game need to score…..Tommy H’s commentary on the Knicks current set up:…..”What IS the offense out there, what is that, what are they doing, good grief”

    Must be from Isiah’s vault of scripted plays……

  28. Owen

    I love David Lee, and he has played a great game tonight, but he is no interior defender….

    Nate doesn’t look good in the least….

  29. Caleb

    Yeah, there’ve been a couple of plays where Rondo made him look positively Curry-like.

    It’s not DL’s offensive game which keeps him from being an elite rather than good or very good player… it’s the other end of the court.

  30. Ess-dog

    well zach really is a 20-10 guy…
    The sad thing is he is like our 2nd best player after Lee. I hope zeke makes trade for another power forward! We could really use 3.
    We really are a guard short out there too. Can’t we just find someone from the D league to give Crawford a 4minute breather?

  31. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    Ween peaked?!? Blasphemy!

    Anyhoo…I always wonder why Lee isn’t a better shotblocker. He seems to have the prerequisites – good leaping ability, long arms, a nose for the ball.

  32. Brian Cronin

    For the record, George did not have a no-trade clause, it was instead a little known rule (I had never heard of it) saying that players on one-year contracts who are eligible for Bird rights now but would lose them if traded, have the right to veto such a trade.

  33. Z

    “GS/Phoenix on ESPN now, in case anyone needs a reminder of why they like the NBA. first to 120!”

    Good call Jon– final score 118 to 120.

  34. oboogie

    ime udoka and matt barnes are both contributing solidly to the spurs and warriors, respectively. isiah has no gauge of inexpensive talent whatsoever.

  35. Frank

    Man, why are you guys upset that we lost this game? I’m hoping for a 0 and whatever streak to end the season– that’s the best hope we’ll tear this thing down and rebuild the right way:

    - real GM
    - real coach
    - real players starting
    - real rotations
    - real plays as opposed to endless Jamal iso plays and people running around like 3rd grade recess
    - real attitude
    - real toughness ie. Oakley/Starks/Ewing -esque
    - hopefully top 3 draft pick

    It’s amazing that many high school teams have these qualities but not our $1 billion Knicks franchise.

    unfortunately what we really need in addition is real owner but that’s not going to happen.

    I love my Knicks but I was actually a bit sad when they beat Milwaukee the other night.

  36. Frank

    By the way I am actually a season ticket holder – but am willing to essentially eat my seats for the rest of the year to get this franchise healthy again. This thing really needs to fall apart terribly, and right NOW.

  37. Frank

    Sorry for 3 posts in a row, but one more thought:

    I know people didn’t really like my plan for rebuilding the Knicks (ie. trade Zach for Ben Wallace, sign Artest) because it might decrease the long-term potential of the team — but one of the reasons (besides the fact that I think that team would be actually really good) I want to do that is to bring attitude, toughness, and a mean streak back to our team. I want the IDENTITY of the Knicks back. We play like a bad Pac-10 team plays football. We play like a bad run-and-shoot NFL team from the early 90s. We play like a bunch of figure skaters.

    I want Big 10 smashmouth football.

    I want the 1991 Giants (this year’s Giants would be ok too!) or the Ravens team that won the Super Bowl, not the Oilers that blew a 35-3 lead against the Bills (off topic but does anyone remember that game? that was AWESOME).

    I want ice hockey, not figure skaters.

    When Oakley, Starks, and LJ retired, and when Ewing got traded, the soul of the Knicks was lost. I thought Allan Houston was a good player but he’s a jump shooter, not a scrapper. Camby was good but he got traded too.

    On this team, there are only a few players that could even have lasted 5 minutes on the court against the Ewing/Starks/Oakley crew – David Lee, Balkman, Nate, Fred Jones, and Malik Rose.

    Watching Tony Allen of all people drive the lane at will last night and dunk/layup the ball made me sick. That guy would’ve been knocked on his butt by our teams of old and then he would’ve thought twice about coming back in there. I don’t want to hurt anyone, but there has to be some apprehension when driving the lane against an NYC team.

    So that’s probably most of why I want Artest and Wallace here. Attitude. Toughness. Defense. And if we recapture that soul, maybe we don’t NEED to completely tear the whole thing down (of course Isiah still needs to go badly). Maybe they’ll even rub off onto Eddy Curry, who still has All-Star or maybe All-NBA physical potential but has a D-League head.

  38. jon abbey

    “ime udoka and matt barnes are both contributing solidly to the spurs and warriors, respectively. isiah has no gauge of inexpensive talent whatsoever.”

    this is unfair IMO, Barnes also got released by Philly after us, either he improved that much after leaving or he wouldn’t fit in anywhere else nearly as well. as for playing in San Antonio, it doesn’t take much to play alongside those three superstars.

    what Isiah has no gauge of is superstars, we have no shortage of competent role players.

  39. Ted Nelson

    I think the fact that Barnes and Udoka are doing well shows that Isiah does have a “gauge of inexpensive talent”: he signed both of them.

    Of course, Isiah has no gauge for building/running a team, he didn’t keep those two, and as Jon Abbey points out it doesn’t really matter who else you have when your team is built around Curry, Marbury, and Crawford.

  40. Spider Cider

    “…team is built around Curry, Marbury, and Crawford.”

    I thought the team was built around unfounded ideas, reckless spending, and the utmost idiocy. Did I miss something?

  41. Spider Cider

    Also, thank you Knickerblogger, for rekindling my love of Ween. I spent all night reading Ween interviews and watching clips on YouTube. It was way more gratifying than sleep.

  42. bmj320

    Here are a couple of trades that might work. 1)Curry to the Kings for Artest. 2)Fred Jones to the Warriors for Michael Pietrus 3)Mardy Collins to the Grizzlies for Kyle Lowry. This would change the whole makeup of the team. Thats three defenders being brought in. Starting lineup would be: pg Crawford, sg Pietrus, sf Artest, pf Zach, c James.

  43. Spider Cider

    “3)Mardy Collins to the Grizzlies for Kyle Lowry”

    What? Kyle Lowry is good, almost like a homeless man’s Jason Kidd, whereas Mardy Collins is…I guess a homeless man’s Kyle Lowry?

    It would be conceivable if Lowry were not on a rookie contract, as Memphis obviously is looking to shed salary, but otherwise this is completely outlandish and seemingly not grounded in any real evaluation of player talent. It’s the kind deal Isiah usually gets fleeced in, not vice versa.

    Side note: There is no way in hell that Isiah is pronounced “I-zay-ah”, it’s gotta be “I-zee-ah”, much like Antawn Jamison (it’s totally An-tahn). Learn to spell, parents of future NBA players! This just reinforces my desire to name one of my yet-to-be-conceived children something like Steve, but have it be pronounced as “Wayne”. Or name then Xrtghulskws, pronounced as “John”.

    …I should sleep. Too much rambling non-sense.

  44. Hudson River

    “Starting lineup would be: pg Crawford, sg Pietrus, sf Artest, pf Zach, c James.”

    I sure hope you aren’t suggesting Jerome James, PLEASE tell me you aren’t suggesting Jerome James getting starting minutes.

    Lastly, Mardy Collins is a poor man’s Marko Jaric with no shot at all, and that’s all Marko Jaric’s game is.

  45. Thomas B.

    I looked up Ween on wikipedia, yeah this IS an inside joke..inside of a retirement home. :-) Geezer rock, sheesh.

    It is sad the Knicks are so bad that posters would rather talk about prog rock (a term that must be euphemism as it describes a style that started 47 years ago. How can you be described as progressive 47 years after the movemant began?) than the team.

    How about I even the playing field? Was Run-D-M.C.’s self titled debut album better than Raising Hell? Would you agree that they peaked with Tougher than Leather? IMO Rock Box is their greastest hit.

  46. Thomas B.

    “What? Kyle Lowry is good, almost like a homeless man’s Jason Kidd, whereas Mardy Collins is…I guess a homeless man’s Kyle Lowry?”

    That was funny.

  47. Caleb

    Here’s a helpful reminder of why it’s worth dumping Zach, Curry, Crawford and Jeffries (the squad of 2011) for nothing, if necessary…
    It’s not just LeBron…

    From TrueHoop this morning:
    “A lot of teams want to have cap room in the summer of 2010, because that’s when LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and various other blue-chip players are eligible to taste unrestricted free agency. Contract extensions and opt-outs will prevent many of these players from playing the market, but at the moment the list could theoretically include Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Rip Hamilton, Kobe Bryant, Amare Stoudemire, Manu Ginobili, Carlos Boozer, Yao Ming, Dirk Nowitzki, and others.”

  48. Spider Cider

    This really shouldn’t turn into a debate about the merits of Ween (since there’s no debate to be had – Ween shreds), but “prog-rock” is hardly an apt description of the glory of the Ween-ness. They did a country album! Prog rockers wouldn’t touch country with a 10-foot stick.

  49. Thomas B.

    Wikipedia described Ween as prog rock. I wouldnt know prog rock if it slapped me in the face. Country album you say? That solidifies their absence from my YahooMusic playlist.

    I’m sure Ween shreds and totally rocks out to the max like gag me with a spoon. I just never heard of them. Thus, my difficulty in relating them to the Knicks/Celtics game.

  50. Spider Cider

    I like this JVG character, despite the lack of vowels in his name. Is that pronounced “Steve”, by the way?

  51. Ess-dog

    Ween is definitely not Prog Rock. Maybe Snog Rock.
    I can’t imagine any young’n being interested in Ween these days (sadly.)
    Sounds like Zach wants out – bad. I propose we trade him to the Timberwolves for a liter of egg nog, a cheese wheel (hold out for sharp cheddar) and maybe Jaric.
    Is there a rule as to how many of your current players you can trade during a season? I could see all of these players leaving, including Lee and Nate.
    What about Clemens? That fat-faced liar is going down…

  52. Thomas B.

    Ess-Dog,

    I like the trade to Minny but one question; what kind of cheese?

    Would a guy like DeAndre Jordan be a good top five pick for the Knicks?
    http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeAndre-Jordan-1072/
    He may need 2-3 years to season but so did Chris Bosh. I think he could play well at center with Evil Dead at the 4. We still need a young point prospect. I hear Jarret Jack is available, perhaps he could break the Knicks’ JJ curse of mediocrity.

  53. TDM

    Frank said:

    “On this team, there are only a few players that could even have lasted 5 minutes on the court against the Ewing/Starks/Oakley crew – David Lee, Balkman, Nate, Fred Jones, and Malik Rose. …
    So that’s probably most of why I want Artest and Wallace here. Attitude. Toughness. Defense. And if we recapture that soul, maybe we don’t NEED to completely tear the whole thing down (of course Isiah still needs to go badly). Maybe they’ll even rub off onto Eddy Curry, who still has All-Star or maybe All-NBA physical potential but has a D-League head.”

    Frank, couldn’t agree more. I think Frank Williams showed that kind of heart, however, he was done the day the Knicks traded for marbury. Ironically, Isiah had a reputation for being a gritty, tough player. I think he’s tried to instill that in his players, but I don’t think this trait is something that you can teach to just anyone. You can bring it out of a player if they have the instincts.

    I still think Curry could go a long way if the Knicks had brought in Ewing to tutor him. Look at Yao Ming. The guy came into the league as a total softy. He’s no Oakley, but he’s certainly gained more respect on the court. Dwight Howard has also taken huge leaps this year. No one respects the Knicks’ bigs.

    I think Wallace didn’t fit into Chicago’s program from day one. He butted heads with Skiles over stupid crap. I think he’s lost some of his desire, but I’d be willing to bet that a change of scenery for him would bring out the old Big Ben. I’d take a chance on Artest as well.

  54. Frank O.

    Here is my hope for the All Star break:

    Dolan fires Isiah.

    His investments in Randolph and Curry have been disasters. Neither plays defense, nor can they make up for their liabilities with scoring.

    Q is over the hill.

    Crawford is locked in, unable to do better than 40 percent from the field.

    This is a team without a true point guard, a true leader

    And our youth withers on the vine.

    I have simply stopped watching, and not being a particularly unusual person, I suspect I represent a significant portion of the fan base.

    Before Isiah makes another boneheaded move, Dolan needs to move him. Now, Dolan also is a problem, but he isn’t going anywhere.

    What I fear is that Dolan won’t fire Isiah for the same reason Isiah hasn’t wanted to give up on Curry, Randolph, Q, Jones and Crawford: it would require admitting that mistakes were made.

    I don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve stopped considering trade scenarios, stopped considering lineups, stopped any of that.

    Obviously, I haven’t yet stopped caring because I’m writing this note and reading this blog. But the time is coming that that could happen, too, as much as I like what I read and find it informative and entertaining.

    But this is like a bad relationship that needs to end. Isiah needs to go.
    The team’s starters should no longer be starting, to a person.

    There are only a few players on this team that put forth consistent effort. Those players should be rewarded with starting positions.

    And if these things do not happen soon, my hope is that fans will stop going to the games.
    It is ridiculous that this team has been so bad for so long.

  55. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    I’ll take the blame for the Ween-fest that ensued. I was just trying to compare Malik Rose to an El Camino (Full of soul, but not to be used on a regular basis-which led to recalling the Ween song, which led to the trip down Alterna-Rock Lane).

  56. Z

    From the Orlando Sentinel:

    “J.J. Redick wants out, and the Magic might be trying to package a deal with he and Arroyo, along with Pat Garrity’s expiring $3.5 million contract. They need a power forward.”

    Wondering if a match could be made in exchange for Randolph, the article then went on to add:

    “Smith agrees if the Magic were to make a trade, acquiring a tough defender, such as Kurt Thomas of rebuilding Seattle, makes the most sense. The Magic also don’t want to take on a longterm contract, what with the extensions of Dwight Howard and Jameer Nelson to kick in next season…”

    Oh well. I guess I have to face it. Zach Randolph is going to be wearing Knicks on his chest for a long, long time…

  57. Spider Cider

    “4 out of 5 middle-aged posters agree, Ween Shreds!”

    Yet another reason why, despite not even really being a Knicks fan, I love this board.

    P.S. I’m 22. Unless I’m dying at 40, I’m not even close to middle-aged. If this were the middle-ages, I’d be middle-aged!

  58. AJJA

    Frank O.

    I completely agree with you. For me this team has gone from frustrating to watch to unbearable to watch. I turned the game on yesterday for like 2 minutes and saw a sequence where the Knicks turned the ball over on consecutive plays and didn’t get back on defense, or completely left a man open for a wide open 3 pointer. I watched the Suns/Golden State game and was completely entertained. I like defense as much as the next guy, but watching that up-tempo style of basketball was refreshing.

    I too come onto this board to read all the trade possibilities, but I’m getting bored of it for the simple fact that the players we want to get rid of have no value to us and to other teams. Nobody wants Randolph b/c he’s a cancer and nobody wants Curry b/c he can’t play any defense. And Isiah has done nothing to change this. I hate watching him on the bench smiling when the team is getting trounced. I want Isiah gone now, but I doubt Dolan is going to fire him b/c I’ve come to the conclusion that Dolan doesn’t care about this team. I understand he opens up his wallet to pay these players but you’d think he’d say something or do something when he sees the players go out there and give no effort. I’m sick of this team and I’ve pretty much stopped watching. Hopefully enough people stop caring about the Knicks that Dolan does something.

  59. Thomas B.

    Back on the subject of the Knicks/Celtics game.

    Did anyone notice the Knicks “fan” in a NY Jersey wearing a bag over his head? I concluded that was staged by a Boston prankster. I wonder if it was the same guy that threw his Knicks jersey away during the last Knicks game in Boston. He had the same portly build as the other Knicks “fan” but its Boston, lots of folks are portly.

    I think its fake beacuse none of the Boston fans seated near him were giving him a hard time. Boston fans are jerks and they are especially nasty to New York fans following the Giants stomping of those Patriots. Real or fake fan, what do you think?

    I noticed posters complainig about the quality of the Boston telecast. I agree, they are horrid. John Andress is Mike Breen next to Hinson. Here is a hint, you can listen to the Knicks’ radio broadcast for free on NBA.com. I usually mute my tv and listen to Gus Johnson. The online streaming broadcast does not always match the on TV play but you can fix that by playing with your TIVO controls. If you dont have a TIVO, you have my sympathy.

    Any of you Knick fans every go to a knick road game and wear your knicks jersey? I did two years ago in Philly and some nut job behind me kept yelling Yankees suck, Giants suck, and Rangers suck every time I cheered for the Knicks. He want me to sit down. I told him “If you dont like the back of my head, then you can just pay more for your ticket and sit in front of me. So until you get a promotion at RadioShack, shut up.” It got me thinking, what makes him think I care about the Yankees, Giants, or Rangers? He never even said “Knicks suck”, to which I would have replied, “yeah, they do.”

  60. cwod

    i’m 21. i can’t say i listen to ween, though. i’m into more self-important, humorless rock. oh well.

  61. retropkid

    This year I can barely stomach the idea of paying to watch the Knicks…it just encourages Dolan to continue to run the team into the ground.

    On the road, I prefer to respect the homers rather than antagonize them….I’ve seen antagonists in the Garden get their heads taken off….

    This just in: If our heroes go on a 22 game win streak, they will achieve mediocrity!!!! With 30 games left, do you take the over or under against them winning 30?

  62. Roshi

    I’m going with 24 wins. It looks like the players are on the verge of completely tuning out Isiah and just giving up.

  63. njhoops

    I totally agree with Frank and some other posters about Artest and Wallace. Sure, they’ve got their issues, but they will bring it on the defensive end every minute of every game, which not one player on the Knicks except maybe Balkman (who’s really not a smart defender) can say. Did you see in the Boston game how easily their players were getting to the rim? One screen and it’s all over for the Knicks “defense”. And furthermore, the beauty of Artest is he can score, so you don’t sacrifice offense like when Jeffries and Balkman are in the game. Question: were Celtic players like Pierce and Allen known as great defenders before KG joined the team? No, it’s his presence plus Thibodeau as a great D coach. So bring in a new coach, get Wallace and Artest and let’s see what happens.

  64. Ess-dog

    Here’s a question: is there any set of circumstances that you trade David Lee?

    Like if you could get Udrih, Salmons and Garcia and a first rounder for Lee and Curry?

    Maybe that’s not the best example, but you get the idea; a lot of good young players and/or picks for Lee and some dead weight?

  65. John

    I think Artest will come to NY with excitement of playing in his backyard. He’ll also value the opportunity so much that he’ll be on his best behavior.

    However, this team needs swagger on defense like the good ol’ days so yeah, I’d like to see him come in with attitude. No one screwed with Mason/Oakley. We need that attitude and Artest can bring that back.

    If there is a way to purge the softies out and get back to a grinding D with players who can score a little too would be exciting.

    There was a time when no one can score more than 100 points against the Knicks….Question is, how many times has that happen this year?

    Maybe Dolan hasn’t been at the games because he’s too busy searching for a new president/coach under the radar….

    I HOPE THE DOPE IS DOING SOMETHING!

  66. John

    There can’t be anything good to come out of trading Lee. He’s cheap so what could we possibly get back? Some picks and a young PG would be nice….That’s the extent of it. No more big contracts please.

  67. Caleb

    Frank & NJ,

    I agree that Wallace or Artest would improve our team in the short run. They’re terrific adds for a playoff-level team. But the question is: what are you giving up to get that? If it’s Curry or Randolph, or Crawford — one of our long, too-big contracts — sure, go for it. If it’s our high draft picks this year and next, or young players like Lee, Balkman and Robinson – even Chandler – no way.

    Neither Ben or Ron-Ron is anywhere near the level they were at a few years ago. At this point, Balkman is probably a comparable defender to Artest, and a much better rebounder. Two or three years down the road… it’s no comparison.

    Also, people say Artest is a real two-way player, but his offense is nothing spectacular… solid passer, 52.4 TS% — league average is 51 something. Unfortunately, he thinks he’s Kobe so he’d probably take shots away from better scorers, like Robinson and Curry.

    Overall, he’d probably help for a couple of years, but even if he signed for just the mid-level, in 2 or 3 years we’ll be paying $7 million for a guy who is washed up, or locked up… and that $7 million will be what keeps us from having cap room in 2010. WOuld you rather have 33-year-old Ron Artest or one of the guys who’s a free agent that summer: Kobe, Wade, Bosh, Manu, Yao, Dirk, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Amare Stoudemire and Carlos Boozer to name a few. Sure, some of those guys will sign extensions before then, but there will be plenty to choose from… for teams who have cap room.

  68. Caleb

    “Here’s a question: is there any set of circumstances that you trade David Lee?”

    As much as it would break my heart, it would be a potentially smart move to trade him for a pick in the top 7 or 8 — I say potentially, because I don’t know exactly who’s available. Or I would have to strongly consider a trade for a slightly lower pick, plus dumping a bad contract. Say, Lee & Curry to Sacto for the #10 pick (approximate) and a contract expiring this year or next.

    1) realistically, that’s about his value as a player.

    2) He’s cheap now, but by 2009 we’ll be paying at least $6 or 7 million… maybe 9 or 10. That’s not overpaid, but compared to this year’s #6 pick, on rookie deal… it would go a long way towards giving us cap flexibility in 2010 (see my post just above)

    3) Randolph is probably untradeable… so Lee’s minutes will always get short-circuited.

    Emotionally, I hate to give up one of the only players I like… but would have to remind myself, we can get another guy to like, in the mid-lottery.

    I would make the same calculation for Balkman and Robinson, whose extensions will kick in before 2010.

    Not saying to give any of those players away… but on a team this bad, no one is untouchable.

  69. Ess-dog

    Caleb,
    That’s where I was going w/ this. If we can’t dump Randolph (and it’s looking like that will be the case) then maybe we can ask the ceiling for Lee. Sacto is in love w/ him. Maybe getting their draft pick, a good young player and the expiring Ron Ron contract for Lee and Curry. I would love to see Lee be set free and start somewhere fresh…

  70. Frank

    “I agree that Wallace or Artest would improve our team in the short run. They’re terrific adds for a playoff-level team. But the question is: what are you giving up to get that? If it’s Curry or Randolph, or Crawford — one of our long, too-big contracts — sure, go for it. If it’s our high draft picks this year and next, or young players like Lee, Balkman and Robinson – even Chandler – no way.”

    Caleb — the beauty (at least in my eye) of my rebuilding plan for the Knicks is that it wouldn’t require giving up just about anything.

    Trade Zach for Ben Wallace straight up. Maybe some throw-ins on each side to make people happy. Give ‘em Fred Jones’s expiring contract, or Morris, or something as their contracts do us no good anyway with our current cap situation. Not much loss there. Don’t know whether Chicago does that trade unfortunately — although it looks like Wallace has REALLY worn out his welcome there. I actually think Zach fits well in Chicago with Noah and Tyrus Thomas providing some good D to cover his weaknesses. They really need his offense.

    Sign Artest to MLE. I understand that that is limiting our flexibility a few years down the road, but I think unless there is a true commitment to absolutely gut the team, there’s no chance that we’ll actually be under the cap in 2010 or 2011, not with the current owner or with how things have traditionally gone in this city. I could be wrong though…

    SO you don’t give up Lee, Balkman, Nate, Chandler, draft picks, or anything. What’s more, Utah gets our draft pick in 2010 I believe, so it really doesn’t benefit us to be bad in 2009 at least as far as the draft pick goes.

  71. Spider Cider

    “I actually think Zach fits well in Chicago with Noah and Tyrus Thomas providing some good D to cover his weaknesses. They really need his offense.”

    This assumes that John Paxson thinks Randolph is a good offensive player. I’m pretty sure even Pax can check out shooting percentages.

  72. Jimmy P

    I don’t get the rationale of trading a top 50 plahyer — Lee — with whom you know exactly what you have, for a draft pick. If you got a 1 or 2, sure. But noone is going to give that up for Lee. Your taking a step to the left talentwise and risking losing what positive energy you have on the court. Crazy talk.

  73. J B

    Forget trading for Artest or Wallace or anyone else, even Jermaine O’Neal, while Isiah is coach.

    His body language on the sideline has become completely disengaged. It’s downright Marburyesque.

    The players are a problem, but they’re not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is leadership.

    Artest and Wallace wouldn’t change that. They wouldn’t have a chance.

  74. Caleb

    If we really get into Lee deals: I’d rather take a shot at something like this:

    Lee, Jones & Rose to Memphis…
    …for Conley & Brian Cardinal.

    I’d rather do it without Rose & Cardinal, save Malik for another deal, but that might be more like a half-court shot.

    Jimmy, I feel ya – I don’t want to trade Lee either, and there’s obviously no reason to rush. But every player in the league has a value that another team could match… Lee’s is high, but I don’t know it’s as high as a #3 pick..

  75. Brian Cronin

    I don’t want to trade Lee either, and there’s obviously no reason to rush.

    There’s definitely no need to rush if the best they can get is Mike Conley and Brian Cardinal.

  76. Nick

    I think this team needs to look to the draft. If they find a gullible team to give up multiple picks an/or young starters ie: the Kidd “trade” then by all means make trades. However, while Lee, Balkman, Nate and perhaps Jamal are the best of the current lot and “keepers” as such, really other than Lee and Jamal do you ever see them being more than 4-9 on a team that can consistently get to at least the second round? Chanler’s greatest value and Morris is that unlike Mardy Collins they haven’t played enough to show us what they can and can’t do. As for Ron-Ron and Wallace, I’ll concede if you can dump Curry or Zach for them by all means do so, but they are just temporary stopgpaps who will be likely to be vital NBA players come 2010. We have to get off the mindset of falling in love with the least worst players from one of the 5 worst teams in the league.

  77. JVG

    There have been reports that the Knicks might trade Zach Randolph to the Nuggets.

    From the Post: “It is believed names discussed in a potential deal included Linas Kleiza, Eduardo Najera, Steven Hunter and J.R. Smith for Randolph and another Knick. The Knicks appear most interested in up-and-comer Kleiza.”

    This is a pretty good deal. Kleiza and Najera would the toughness and intensity the Bricks are sorely missing. I could see Kleiza becoming a fan favorite among the Knick faithful.

  78. caleb

    Most of the trade ideas we bounce around aim to dump salary or grab extra picks… worthy goals. I’m saying we should be open to 1 for 1 swaps, of roughly equivalent talent, if it helps fill a need, like PG or a defense-minded center. David Lee for Mike Conley (who’s still just 19 and to me doesn’t look like a reach at #4)… or Nate Robinson for Diop, something like that.

    As to the value of our young players…
    - I agree that David Lee is probably a top-50 player (which would translate roughly to a #4-6 draft pick)

    - I am big on Balkman and would not be surprised to see him reach that level – but he fouls so much, he’s not there yet. If Chandler looks like a breakout player, and Balk is expendable, he’s worth at least a lottery pick.

    - Nate could be one of the best scorers in the league, but he’ll never play D and he’s not a real point. I like him but more in a Ben Gordon way, not a — never trade this guy ever way. In a draft swap I’d say he’s worth a #15-20.

    - Chandler is intriguing – he’s still just 20 or 21 – but of course no one knows what he can do.

    - Morris – hard to have high hopes for this guy.

    There’s nothing Jamal Crawford can do that Nate Robinson can’t do for a fraction of the price, and Crawford is major drag on our cap situation – if we could get a pick or even a shorter deal I’d take it in a heartbeat.

    Don’t forget — if you get an equally good player getting paid rookie scale for 4 years instead of 1, you help your financial flexibility quite a bit.

  79. Nick

    Actually that sounds half-decent. If K-Mart can get his head around being a sixth man, Camby should cover up Zach’s flaws. Can ‘Melo, AI and Zach co-exist on the other end?

    As for NYK, Lee starts, Najera fills Lee’s role as the energy big man, Kleiza has put up 40 and can take Qs spot at SF. Hunter is a shot blocking, low usage defensive oriented center, in other words a perfect match for Curry. JR Smith we can do without, as he seems to be Jamal-lite, but at least it alleviates the back-court depth issue.

  80. caleb

    I picture Randolph, Carmelo and Iverson diving on the floor for each loose ball, tearing it to shreds in the process while the other team watches in horror.

  81. DNM

    We don’t know who this “other Knick” in the supposed trade to Denver is. It could be anyone…from Lee, Nate, Balkman, etc.

    If it’s Crawford…then great…I’ll take that trade.

    Until we know the who the mystery Knick is…I wouldn’t be too excited. Even if it meant getting rid of Randolph.

  82. Frank O.

    No weeping Ray.
    I wouldn’t give away anything I paid for. I haven’t paid for a Bricks ticket since box seats during the ’99 playoff run. That was the last time they were worth watching live.

    I’m beginning to wonder about the sanity of the people who pay the kinds of prices the Bricks charge for the product the Bricks put on the floor.

    I mean, Isiah is now saying you can’t play big guys, that the league is phasing them out, and, yet, every time a new dominant, or even competent big man appears, their team contends.

    The teams that win championships have centers who are either competent or dominant. That’s because good big men change the tempo, control the pace and the paint. Once a small team is forced to become chuckers, the big team’s scoring efficiency wins the game.

    It’s stupid, lazy thinking on Isiah’s part. No surprise there.

    What he should say, and is too cowardly to do so, is that Curry is such a liability that his scoring no longer out-weights what he gives up on the defensive end.

    Stupid.

    I’m pretty sure a trade – however good it might seem – with Denver would be bad for the Bricks.

    That’s because it would be a sign that Isiah was still going to be the coach and GM for the foreseeable future. No owner would let a guy he is about to fire tinker with the team’s make-up.

    Of course, Dolan is an idiot, too.

  83. Nick

    When did Isiah figure out that it was allegedly no longer a “big man’s” league? Was it before or after the Zach trade and the related proclamations? For him to say that, is a tacit admission that he is clueless, oblivious, and flat-out brain-dead as well as being a pathological liar.

  84. Jay

    “JR Smith we can do without, as he seems to be Jamal-lite, but at least it alleviates the back-court depth issue.”

    I think he would be one of the keys to the Denver trade. He’s from Newark so you know he’d want to be here. Plus he went straight to the pros from high school, so even though it’s his 5th year he’s still really young.

  85. Nick

    “I think he would be one of the keys to the Denver trade. He’s from Newark so you know he’d want to be here. Plus he went straight to the pros from high school, so even though it’s his 5th year he’s still really young.”

    I don’t but the “really young” explanation. We had to hear that about Curry and Crawford on this team yet neither has developed more than marginally in the years that they have been here. I think with rare exceptions after 2-3 years you either get it or you don’t.

  86. Caleb

    “I think with rare exceptions after 2-3 years you either get it or you don’t.”

    ACtually a player’s age is a huge predictor of how much he’ll improve, or decline.

    That doesn’t mean young players are going to be good — I improved my game enormously between age 17 and 25, and I still couldn’t have sniffed a D1 college squad much less the NBA. It was or should have been obvious a few years ago that Curry doesn’t have it.

    JR Smith is only 22… scoring 22.7/40, with a 58.2 TS% – awesome for a guard. More assists than turnovers, and a decent assist rate for a 2-guard (13.3).

    When Crawford was 22, he was more of a point guard so it’s not a straight comparison… but he scored 17 per 40, with a TS% of just 49.6. He did have double the assist rate, which is pretty nice. (What happened?!?)

    Even now – about to turn 28 – Crawford scores just 19.4/40, TS% at 52.1… assist rate of 18, to 9.5 TOs… rebounds 30 percent less than Smith…

    I have no idea whether Smith plays any D… but even if you assume he doesn’t at all, he still looks a lot better than Crawford. If we ever got him, as long as we don’t sign him to a $50 million contract (Doh! whose idea was that?)… we’ll be fine.

  87. Mr. Black

    Barring a trade for steve Nash, no way this team sees 30. I see 23 wins. 26 if Curry is pulled in favor of Lee. 29 if Jones is also pulled in favor of Robinson. 38 if Curry, Randolph, and Richardson are traded, it doesnt matter for whom.

    So I listen to Ween on yahoomusic. “jonny on the spot” and “dick waving in the wind.”

    It has a good beat and I can dance to it; I give it a 9!

    (scale of 1-1000)

  88. Frank O.

    Worst thing that happened to Crawford was playing for a team that needed him to try to create his own shot.
    Once he did that, and relatively poorly, he was done as an effective point.
    Sometimes teams kill potentially good players.

    The Bricks have been doing it for seven years now…

  89. Sly Williams

    Ugh! I do not like the all-star break. Knicks play once in 9 days, and the whole all-star weekend is boring. Maybe I am in the minority: does anyone care if the east or west wins? I’d rather watch the Globetrotters play the Knicks. Maybe Curry would do better if the basketball had a string on it.

  90. Thomas B.

    Caleb,

    I would hate to see Evil Dead traded, even for a top ten pick becuase DL is a known commodity and a rare one at that. A hard working 10/10 guy who shoots a high % from the floor and the line is hard to come by. Also, I took at look at the draft history of the last 10 years. I compared the 7-9 picks (total of 30 players) and noted the all star players. I found 5 (MacGrady, Dirk, Marion, Hamilton, Amare) All-Star amoung the 30 picks. I found another 5 that are having solid NBA careers but are not likely to be All-Stars. The rest of the 20 picks are marginal players or out of the NBA (Tim Thomas, Foyle, Eddie Griffin, Rodney White, Mike Sweetney). It seems that you have about a 15% of getting a player better than Lee, a 15% chance of a player as good as Lee, and a 70% chance of losing on the deal. I dont think the risk justifies the reward. I do agree that it depends on the available players. But when i look at the top ten prospects in the NCAA, I dont see a guy at 7-9 better than Lee. The prospects get much better when you include possible international players. I think you can find a solid player without trading Lee.

    Now if Miami wants to trade the 2nd pick to NY for Lee, that is another story. Sure, you take Rose with the 2nd pick and you take best available with the 5th pick. Let the young picks develop over the next three years. When Curry, Randolph and Richardson expire, let the youngins run the show. Throw whatever cap room you have at LBJ, Bosh, or Wade and hope for the best. The Knicks should use the next 2-3 years to stockpile and develop young players, while letting salary expire. Lee should be one of the young players we keep.

  91. Frank O.

    I think Curry might perform better if the ball were dipped in chocolate and covered in sprinkles…and the rim was glazed

  92. Frank O.

    This idea that the Bricks could clear cap space and make a run at LeBron is specious at best.

    Let’s face it. For this to happen it would require a complete overhaul of the Bricks management and ownership, a complete overhaul of the Bricks roster, and the rest of the NBA would have to have fallen completely asleep.

    There are a number of teams already in way better cap condition and hence way better positioned than the Bricks to get LeBron.

    Lebron probably will never wear blue and orange…

    unless there comes a time when he is overpaid and over the hill…

    then the Bricks are sure to secure a multi-year deal for LeBron for a handful of first round picks…

  93. Caleb

    Thomas, I think you are about right in draft expectations… I had suggested that Lee is the talent or production of a 4-6 pick… but there’s also value in re-setting the clock… this year’s pick will be making rookie $$ through 2012; Lee starts making real money in 2011. The savings might get a free agent, or be re-packaged in a trade.

    Would you rather have a #5 pick, or a #8 pick AND a #20 pick? Or a #8 pick and cap space? I know, it depends on who those picks are. So I agree, it’s silly to make any move with Lee, unless you know who’s available…

    Objective stuff aside, I would hate to see him go.

    …but I still would make a straight up Lee for Conley deal.

  94. Caleb

    p.s. Lee’s extenstion will actually kick in for the 2009-2010 season.

    I’m guessing he’ll get shafted. I can hear it now. “You only score 10 points a game!”

  95. Caleb

    I hope it’s not rude to be posting so much..

    But I also checked those 30 guys Thomas came up with… 1998-2007, draft picks 7-9. I would agree there are only 5 guys I would take over Lee (comparing career value or expected value) – Nowitzki, Marion, Stoudemire, Deng and Rudy Gay. If you stretch your imagination… you might prefer Rip Hamilton, Andre Miller, Andre Iguodala or Joaqim Noah…

    Even of the 30 players falling in the 4-6 range, there are still only 6 I would definitely prefer to Lee (again, salary aside, and for career as a whole) — Bosh, Wade, Chris Paul, Brandon Roy, Mike Conley and Vince Carter. There are more “maybes”… Jamison, Odom, Gooden, Devin Harris, Josh Childress, Tyrus Thomas, Chris Kaman, even Shaun Livingston — still just 21, although I have a bad feeling about that comeback…

  96. tastycakes

    Who’s running Denver? They want to trade toughness, shooting, and depth for Z-Bo? WTF are they thinking? Unless they’re getting a Lee or Balkman back, that trade makes no sense for them.

    Also, isn’t our roster already full? We’re going to add 2 extra guys? At whose expense? Can we cut Marbury already?

    Legitimately rebuilding by taking on expiring contracts and draft picks = the way to go. Taking on more mid-level talent just to dump one of our many cancers? I’m not so sure. I want an honest rebuilding process and trust Isiah Thomas NOT AT ALL to do it properly.

  97. Frank

    No way we should cut Marbury — at the very least we should be able to get some excellent draft picks and/or young players from that huge contract next year, don’t you think?

    Looking at the Denver/Knicks trade on trade machine — not sure how that’s going to work. Salary wise, it looks the only players that could be “another Knick” and still have the salaries match up are:

    Balkman
    Chandler
    Collins
    Morris
    Nate
    DLee

    I have a bad feeling that “another Knick” is Nate, Lee, or Balkman. Would you guys make that trade if one of those three were involved?

  98. nj hoop

    Love those Curry food comments.

    On another topic, how about All Star break grades for this sorry bunch? I’ll take a shot at it:

    Crawford B-
    Marbury F (just for being such an a-hole)
    Zach C+
    Curry F
    Q D-
    Lee B
    Nate B
    Balkman B-
    Jeffries C-
    Jones C+
    Collins D-
    Rose B (plays good D, but then decides he is an offensive force)
    Chandler inc.
    Morris inc.

    Comments?

  99. Caleb

    I’d do it if it were Nate or Chandler (or Collins or Morris, obviously)… think of it as a swap of our young guy for JR Smith… and a separate trade of Randolph for Kleiza. Not bad, no?

    Hunter looked decent in Phoenix, a few years ago..

    Balkman would give me serious pause. Lee, forget it.

  100. Brian Cronin

    My thing is that I find it extremely hard to believe that David Lee would be listed as “another Knick.” Heck, I find it hard to believe that Balkman or Nate would even be listed as “another Knick.”

    So I’m figuring Morris (or perhaps Chandler). Which would make sense, I think, if Denver is silly enough to do that trade (which would be a brilliant trade on Isiah’s part), they’d need to get some youth back in return.

  101. L.A.

    As a lifelong fan, I had watched nearly every game for years. I used to have a rotating system of tapes and then came the ease of TIVO. This year I finally made the resolution on Jan 1 to stop. It was the first New Years resolution that I have acutally stuck to. It was the best decision I could have made. I have so much less frustration and disapointment. My advice when you go for that remote – just say no. At least until the idiots who run the team are gone.

  102. Capt. Merlin

    if this trade goes through, what sort of ramifications would there be within the locker room? I mean, considering the role played by JR Smith in the melee last year, and how generally a player will not get along well if his coach once ordered a hard foul on him…interesting to think about

  103. Mulligan

    I was pumped when I read about this trade. In fact, it seemed too good to be true. Does Zeke really have the capacity to do a trade where we come out better for it?
    I wouldn’t even mind if it’s Nate, he’s not our point guard of the future and Denver needs a point guard. From what I hear, Kleiza can really play… it’ll free up Lee and maybe even put some fire under Balkman since Kleiza will be competition. Can Kleiza play SG? Kleiza, Balkman and Lee on the floor at the same time could be amazing.

  104. Roshi

    Caleb, I think you are dangerously overrating David Lee:

    “If you stretch your imagination… you might prefer Rip Hamilton, Andre Miller, Andre Iguodala or Joaqim Noah…”

    Assuming you were referring to these players’ body of work (as opposed to current value) It seems pretty clear to me that Rip is certainly better than David Lee. Miller and Iguodala are arguable, and the jury is still out on Noah.

    “There are more “maybes”… Jamison, Odom, Gooden, Devin Harris, Josh Childress, Tyrus Thomas, Chris Kaman, even Shaun Livingston ”

    Once again, Antawn Jamison, over his career, has been a more valuable player than David Lee. I would also put Devin Harris and Chris Kamen above him. The others are questionable.

    I’m not sure I’m understanding the context here, but I think you might be guilty of choosing, as someone here phrased it, the ‘least bad’ player on an atrocious team. On a good team, David Lee, Nate, and Balkman are 6th men. The other Knicks, most notably Mardy Collins, probably should be in the D-league.

  105. JVG

    I know it may be hard to fathom that Isiah actually makes a good trade in which the Bricks get the better end, but it could be chalked up to a desperation move by Denver in response to all the other blockbuster trades that Western Conference teams have made (i.e. Gasol, Shaq, and maybe Kidd).

    That WC playoff race is ridiculously tight. The difference between the 1 and 9 spots is something like 5 or 6 games.

  106. Spider Cider

    “On a good team, David Lee, Nate, and Balkman are 6th men.”

    On a good team, Nate Robinson doesn’t play.

  107. Brian Cronin

    That is the interesting thing, JVG, in that I can totally see Denver selling themselves on this trade.

    They don’t give up any of their three “key” players (AI, Melo and Camby) and they get a famous player in return (who was drafted by Portland when Denver’s current GM was working at Portland).

    But still, it does seem strange that they’d add yet another overpaid, long contract to Nene and K-Mart.

  108. Brian Cronin

    On a good team, David Lee, Nate, and Balkman are 6th men.

    On a lot of good teams, yes, Lee would not start. On some good teams, he would. Depends on the good team.

    Houston, for instance, would start Lee over Scola, I bet.

    I bet Dallas would start him, too (moving Dirk to the 5).

    So would Denver.

    I dunno about Golden State or Portland.

    Hurt Lakers yes/Healthy Lakers no (although you could argue that they should).

    Phoenix no.

    Detroit no.

    Celtics probably (Garnett moving to the 5).

    San Antonio probably no (but not definitely no).

    Hornets no (although you could argue they should).

    Utah no.

    Toronto probably no.

    Cleveland probably no (it’d be close).

    Orlando probably no (although you could argue they should).

  109. Caleb

    Roshi, even based on your comment it doesn’t look like you really disagree with me much. Maybe on Rip Hamilton.

    I am making the educated guess that Lee will improve a bit, and maintain a high level over the next several years. Not farfetched, but of course not a guarantee.

  110. Frank

    I’m a big Nate fan, true, but I definitely think he plays for MOST teams in this league. He’s at LEAST as good as Earl Boykins, who was a very valuable player in this league until he stupidly priced himself out of a job. Nate shoots 40% from 3 and is a great change of pace guy in the backcourt. On an excellent team he’s probably a 10-15 min/game guy. On a good team he probably gets 15-20 min, and on a bad team (ie. the Knicks) he gets 25-30.

    Balkman, on the other hand, still hasn’t proven to me that he’s much better than Jerome Williams. He’s a borderline rotation player.

    Lee is at least a 6th man on even the best teams.

  111. Spider Cider

    Just for fun, and because I’ve been noticing a lot of Nate Robinson love here lately, here are some fun stats on his season thus far:

    Games he has shot 50% or better from the floor: 14 (in only 5 of those did he take more than 10 shots)
    Games he has shot under 40%: 27
    Games with as many or more TO’s than assists: 20
    Games with 5 or more assists: 11
    Games of 0 FGM and at least 3 FGA: 4
    Games of 10+ FTA: 1

    Yes sir, Nate Robinson is good!

  112. Thomas B.

    I think JR Smith for Robinson is a push. Jr has size and he has good range on the jumper. I like Robinson and I think he hasnt reach his potential yet but I like JR too. Do you think JR can come to the team without moving Robinson? Remember these two went at it during the “brawl” last year.

    I think brining in JR sets up moving Crawford. Linus makes Chandler or Balkman expendable. I hope Balkman can stay, I love that guy more than I love Ween.

  113. Spider Cider

    “Nate shoots 40% from 3″

    No, he doesn’t. Try 40% from the floor, and 36% from downtown this year.

  114. Caleb

    I think Balkman is waaaay underrated here but I’m just going to shut up until he plays more… it’s hard to argue the hypothetical of “if” he played. I will point out that the Knicks the past two years have been almost 10 points better (per 48 minutes) when he’s on the floor, and this year have actually outscored the opposition when RB has been on the court. We’re talking about a team that is 14-36, but ABOVE AVERAGE when Renaldo Balkman plays. Fairly small sample size, but still…

    Yeah, Nate for JR is pretty even. If the rest of the deal is Randolph for Kleiza and shorter contracts, that’s a fantastic deal for us.

    I don’t know what Spider’s point is… that Robinson is a bad shooter? His TS% is above average for guards and as noted he’s shooting almost 40% from 3-point range, same as the last two years…

    I don’t think he’s a real point guard, mainly pure scoring, but he’s just as good as Leandro Barbosa, my favorite comparison.

  115. Spider Cider

    My point is Nate is a terrible player. 24 games he’s shot under 40%! 20 games with more TO’s than assists. That’s atrocious. He’s far from Barbosa’s level. He’s more like an undersized Jamal Crawford.

  116. Caleb

    sorry spider, you’re right, his horrendous slump has brought him down to 36% for the year… but he was over 39% the past two years. I think the injuries this year (hamstring, now quad) have hurt.

    But his regular FG% is misleading; it’s on the low side because he takes so many threes.

    And while he’s not a pure passer he doesn’t turn it over, either — TO ratio is 15th best of 64 PGs in the league.

  117. Spider Cider

    How does someone with Nate’s speed, ball-handling, and jumping ability have only 1 game of 10 or more free throws?

  118. Spider Cider

    You see it as his recent slump having hurt him, whereas I see it as his recent hot-streak having made him look way better than he is.

  119. Caleb

    Barbosa might be a reach, but he’s about even with Ben Gordon, by the numbers — and by the impact.

    Counting games where he shot under 40% is pretty silly – that’s a normal statistical distribution. Why not just look at overall shooting percentages?

  120. Spider Cider

    But you’re also right about his shooting. I did not look at the number of 3′s he takes. But I still have to question why someone of his speed, ball-handling, and jumping ability doesn’t take it the hole more often and draw fouls, rather than settling for 3′s.

  121. Caleb

    TS% was more than 3 points better last year, is all I’m saying… and he was hurt during the recent slump, and at the beginning of the year, too. Of course it could be a coincidence.

    Even WITH the slump included, this year he’s been above average for both PGs and two-guards.

    HIs defense is something else but it’s ridiculous to call him a bad offensive player.

  122. zeeman

    Nuggets have no interest in Zack. Basically doesn’t fit in to the system. He is basically a ballstopper and a black hole on offense. Once he gets the ball in the post it is not coming out.

    Can’t imagine Melo or Iverson even passing him the ball unless it was a shot clock bailout.

    Contract is also too long, for someone that doesn’t fit a running systtem

  123. Spider Cider

    “Counting games where he shot under 40% is pretty silly – that’s a normal statistical distribution. Why not just look at overall shooting percentages?”

    Can’t say I agree. You win individual games. You get no bonus for amalgamated efficiency. Let’s look at an extreme example, probably way more extreme than would ever happen in the NBA, but it illustrates my point. Compare player A to player B over a 4 game stretch (just looking at shooting, assuming they take and make the same number of 3′s, no FT’s).

    Player A
    Game 1: 1-4
    Game 2: 2-8
    Game 3: 3-10
    Game 4: 10-10

    Player B
    Game 1-4: 4-8

    So both players end up shooting 50% on 32 attempts, yet most people would say (I certainly would) that player B is much more valuable. Consistency is a skill, one that Nate Robinson does not have. Player A has likely hurt his teams chances to win in 3 games, and helped them immensely in 1. Player B has helped his team quite a bit in every game.

  124. Frank

    Just to reply to Spider Cider hating on Nate:

    ““Nate shoots 40% from 3″

    “No, he doesn’t. Try 40% from the floor, and 36% from downtown this year.”

    Actually, for his 3 point shooting, try 39.7% his 1st year, 39% for his second year. And in November and January, he shot 41.3% and 40.3%. December was not so good, 32%.
    February has been a bad month for him — injured, in the hospital, etc. So out of a total of 2 years and 3.5 months of his career, he has shot 39-40% from 3pt range in 2 years and 2 months. I’d say that is pretty close to 40% from 3.

    Now, in January when he was getting real minutes — a 5.1/1.4 assists/TO ratio, 47% from the floor, 40% from 3, 81% from the line.

    More from Spider Cider:

    “Games he has shot 50% or better from the floor: 14 (in only 5 of those did he take more than 10 shots)
    Games he has shot under 40%: 27″

    If you are going to make caveats in his good shooting games, you have to apply that to his bad shooting games too. So let me amend for you:

    Games he has shot 50% or better from the floor: 14 (in only 5 of those did he take more than 10 shots)

    Games he has shot under 40%: 27 (in only 6 of those did he take more than 10 shots).

    The fact is, the only month in which the Knicks were playing better than terribly was in January, which not coincidentally was also when Nate started getting heavy minutes, pushing the ball, and setting up his teammates. Just watching the game you feel his energy, hustle, and drive. The only other players you get that from on the Knicks are Lee and Balkman. So that is why he gets love from me.

  125. Frank O.

    I have to agree with Frank. The more responsibility they have given Nate, the better he has played. Now, he’s going to make mistakes because of youth and inexperience, but the dude can play.
    I was getting ready to load up on his stats in those games he got major, consistent minutes, but Frank beat me to it.

    He is playing very well when healthy.

    The thing that hurt his stats this year is that he tried several times to play through injuries…

  126. Spider Cider

    Frank: The caveat was to show that when he’s shooting well, he’s not shooting more. It was quite arbitrary. And the 3pt%, I only looked at this year, so my bad there.

    And jointly addressed to the 2 Franks: So you guys don’t buy the idea (endorsed by this site) that player performance is not dependent on minutes? To me, it looked way more like a hot streak that coincided with some injuries to the team than Nate responding to increased minutes. But I suppose we’ll see in the 2nd half of the season if Nate keeps it up. If he does, I’m willing to re-evaluate my opinion on him.

  127. oboogie

    if we get linas kleiza in this potential deal with denver, i would gladly trade lee as a sweetner with curry to dump his contract. any cap relief for summer 2010 and 1st round draft picks would be wonderful.

  128. Ess-dog

    Not that the trade will happen, but Lee would never be the “other Knick” in the Denver trade because he would be our new starting PF with Zach gone. My guess is they want Balkman.

  129. oboogie

    lee is undoubtably my favorite knick. but im from the school of sell high a la billy beane and the oakland athletics. if we can use lee as leverage to have another team take a bad contract such as curry (assuming the denver trade goes thru), id love to be under the cap for 2010.

    some of the free agents for 2010 include lebron, wade, chris paul, deron williams, carlos boozer, and chris bosh.

    lebron or curry and lee? you do the math.

  130. Ray

    Kleiza looks like a good ball player. Good size ,toughness and shooting. I think he had a 43 point game earlier this season. If Nate goes im pretty sure that will come back to hurt us one day. Nate can play…he is a little wild at time but hes getting better. His shooting is seemingly better than years past. I think the other Knick will be Balkman. He would fit perfect in Denver. D-Lee for picks I would do as long as we send him out West. That way we will only see him twice a year. As far as getting Lebron goes, mark my words, Hes going to be playing for the Brooklyn Nets. Hes close friends with Jay-Z and I dont see him going anywhere else but there. He’d be the King of New York. I can see Miami winning a few more games as soon as Marion and WAde start clicking and this would let the Knicks move up in position and maybe get a big man or a PG. Mayo would be a great combo scoring guard for us. Hes been playing good D as of late but hes not dominating like “they” thought but his potential is crazy. Hope this deal just happens already.

  131. Caleb

    If this deal is real, and not a total fantasy, Balkman is the obvious candidate… he’s the only player besides Lee who makes it not a completely lopsided deal, he’s the perfect George Karl type and with 3 scorers who want the ball all day long… they need guys who never need a play run for them, ever.

    It’s a close call… we’d be getting two pretty good young prospects, AND shedding Zach’s contract..

    …but I have a feeling that in 2 years Balkman would be the best player involved in the deal… and meanwhile we’d be faced with owing at least medium-size extensions to Kleiza and Smith, neither of whom plays much D…

  132. Caleb

    “lebron or curry and lee? you do the math.”

    Sure, but you don’t have to panic this early… if not this trade deadline, there’s next year… and even the year after, when Zach will only be owed 1 1/2 more seasons. THere will be other opportunities to unload him, without giving up DL.

    Of course if we’re having this conversation in February 2010, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

  133. Ben R

    I would have to pause alot if we had to include Balkman. I personally put Balkman’s value as just under Lee’s. He is looks to be a game changing defender. I am a huge Lee fan but I would not be shocked if in two years Balkman was the better player. I want Lee and Balkman to be Knicks for a long time. I would not trade Balkman or Lee for anything lower than a top five pick and so I would not just throw them in on a trade.

    As for Nate, I would hate to lose him but I would in that deal. I think Nate has the potential to be a fantastic combo guard off the bench. He is a great scorer and before his recent injury he was playing incredible ball in January.

  134. Brian Cronin

    Agreed on all points, Ben.

    Balkman is too good to be the “sweetener” to make teams take Randolph.

    Nate probably isn’t.

  135. Frank O.

    Spider:
    Generally I agree with the broad idea that players’ minutes don’t affect things.
    But in Nate’s case, his play so radically improves when he plays consistently, it’s hard to ignore.
    In summer league, when he played a lot of minutes every day, he really got a flow on and was a dominant player.
    Now one might say, that was against a bunch of neophytes…but then when he started to get lots of minutes during this season, he became a dominant player. He made other players better, scored with a relatively high percentage, and was all over.
    in fact, it was clear that when he got into foul trouble, games were lost because he wasn’t on the floor.
    And the stats bear out what I was observing.
    His shooting percentage was better, significantly better than this year’s average, and a bit better than his averages over the past two years.

    In fact, with Nate, it appeared his stats were more in line with stats from the previous two years when he was getting consistent time.

    A 40 percent shooter from 3 pt is pretty damn good. Better by far than anyone else on the team.
    And his assists were up to a very good number for a two.

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