Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, December 22, 2014

2008 Game Thread: Celtics at Knicks

Your pre/in/post game thoughts.

187 comments on “2008 Game Thread: Celtics at Knicks

  1. Roshi

    I’m at work, but listening to the game on nba.com. Am I delirious, or does Kendrick frickin Perkins have 15pts already. Is anyone playing defense?

  2. Frank O.

    There’s a defensive adjustment.
    Perkins, a nobody, dominates Curry, gets 15 points in the first 10 minutes, and Zeke decides to put Randolph, our stopper, on Perkins.
    Then Curry is guarding KG, and he banks home a jumper from the block.

    Curry needs to be benched.
    And Crawford has already taken a few crappy jumpers.

    God this team drives me nuts.

  3. Frank O.

    Once again the starters suck, and Jeffries, Lee and Nate are called upon to get them back in the game with some defense.

    When will Zeke learn that his “twin twinkies” do not work together because they are utterly inept on defense. Any good team will exploit them.
    It appears to be the plan for every team to get off the guy Curry or Randolph is covering to create a lead.

    The Bricks starting lineup constantly spots the other team 8-12 points…

  4. Roshi

    Why oh why are Curry and Randolph on the floor together? Does the court need to cave in from their collective weight for Isiah to abandon his ‘dream tandem’?

  5. Roshi

    As much as we complain about Crawford, he gives us a chance to compete with anyone when he’s on fire.

  6. Frank O.

    Yeah, Robinson played stupid.

    I have to say. When great players make acrobatic shots, yu are amazed.
    When Crawford does it, it looks like he’s pulling something out of his ass because he is taking an ill-advised shot. You start with Nooooooooooo! and then it turns into Yessssss!

    But honest, it’s more relief than awe or amazement. He’s a bit lucky. When a 40 percent guy does it, it’s a lot of luck.

    On the bright side, the super subs have pulled the Bricks back into the game.

    But Roshi, you’e right. It’s a huge handicap without nate.
    I would like to see Isiah go back to him, though, to see if he can stay under control and last the game out playing 30 minutes…

  7. Roshi

    Does anyone compile player v. player matchup statistics? I’d love to see how badly Curry gets outplayed by who he’s guarding, regardless of who it is.

  8. Frank O.

    amazing Zach dribbles the ball up and back down and everyone stops moving…
    Can we trade him before the game is over…?

  9. Roshi

    If he starts showing he can hit that shot, the defense will have to respect it, giving him room to take it strong to the basket.

  10. Frank O.

    Lee and jeffries are the only reason the Bricks are in this game.
    their defense has made the dif so far

  11. Frank O.

    It wasn’t a fast break. he got the rebound. dribbled it up, back the ball down and got stripped.

  12. Frank O.

    Yeah. I’m glad he rebounds. But if he didn’t he’d be Curry.
    I like calling them the twin twinkies…

  13. Frank O.

    Jeffries is doing great job on KG. denying the ball. Harrassing him.
    I know not many people like him because of his O, but I love his D.
    Long guy like that is a perfect defender against KG. Same size. Same basic length. And he moves well.
    Perkins just shot over balkman

  14. Frank O.

    Why was Jeffries handling the ball?
    but he did a great job checking KG again. AndBalkman’s help was great, although he piccked up his 2nd.
    I like it though that they didn’t give up the easy block.
    What is amazing is there is all this action under the hoop and where the hell is our 6’11 center???

  15. Ess-dog

    say what you want about Zach, but Curry has turned into a highly paid lamppost. He’s getting fatter and fatter! Jeffries is such an improvment when he’s in. And I’m not necessarily defending Zach, but there’s also a lack of player movement sometimes when he put’s up those ill advised shots. He has 9 boards already! The big problems are Q and Curry. And Nate has to be on the floor at all times…

  16. JoeV

    80% of the Knicks problem is Clyde Fraz..’s Negative feedback when he’s covering the game. He’s the first to criticize, the first to look for an excuse of why the opponent might lose, the last to act favorably when the knicks does something spectacular,( a good move to the barsket etc), and first to reward a move from the knicks opponents. You can tell he controlls most of the replay. Most of the crap he says about why a knick player is benched is his way of instigating, casing players not to get along.if you back to the knicks brawl he was the first to say about Nate before any penalties was issued that there were children in the audience and that he should never had reacted that way.
    Somethings need to be said but he’s always the first. His reaction to a dunk or a good move that Crawford does is pre-meditated. He needs to think about how to react, meanwhile the other announcers have already cheered. He’s a big reason for the boes we get. Not that we wouldn’t have got them but he does a good job adiing fuel to the fire. I wish he’d just go away. Get a Job elswhere.He does a good job pretending to be fair to all teams but he’s a fake. The only person he favors in the knicks knowadays is Marbury which is part of the problem. I guess he’ll do anything to see the knicks fall. My only guess to why he does this is that he doesn’t want to work during the play offs if knicks were to make it. That might sound silly but what other reason would he have for acting that way. Does anybody agree with with my assesment of his behaviour?

  17. Sledge

    mike breen always repeating that the celtics aren’t that good a rebounding team…
    after 1st half: celtics 22 vs knicks 14

    and why isn’t Lee playing more minutes?? He’s the only on with +

  18. Owen

    Highly paid lamppost, I like it….

    I guess add Kendrick Perkins to the list of people who have had career games against the Knicks, and he has done it in the first half, lol….

  19. Gorky

    The problem that Zeke has this year (as a coach) is that he feels beholden to all the players and can’t bench them, especially high-salary guys like Curry or Zach. When he benched either of them, they complained and Zeke caved. He wants them to like him so he’s not tough enough to bench either. Though I guess judging by the reaction he got when benching Marbury, he’s doing the right thing by keeping players happy.

  20. Frank O.

    someone pleaer helpt JoeV get his head out of the sand.
    Dude, the Bricks are 13-27 and their defense absolutely sucks today.
    They take poor shots, make poor passing decisions, and don’t help each other on defense.
    What Walt says doesn’t matter a bit.
    When you purchase a poor product, you know it. You don’t need an announcer to tell you whether it is good or not.
    To think Walt being negative has nothing to do with it.
    That’s one of the major knocks on Dolan. He doesn’t permit dissenting voices. It’s one reason why Marv Albert got canned and also the reason why no Bricks executives will speak frankly about the state of the organization and why no one high up in the organization was willing to face Dolan and say you have to settle this harrassment suit.
    This team sucks.
    If Walt says positive things, that won’t change how bad this team sucks…

  21. Frank O.

    And if they pull this game out, it won’t be because Walt says something nice either….
    Nice drive by nate

  22. Roshi

    Frankly, I like Clyde’s honesty. Someone needs to point out the obvious, instead of living in fantasy land.

  23. Frank O.

    Jeffries shot was horrible…

    But his D is outstanding.
    He’s not the guy that should be shooting. And if he is going to shoot, take it to the hoop and force a foul

  24. Sledge

    Looks like it’s going to be another large defeat but at least not a humiliating performance as in boston last november…

  25. Frank O.

    Q Rich air ball and then a foul on the other end.

    so glad he’s back in the game again…

    I am so sick of this rotation.

  26. Gorky

    Curry just laid out Rondo, who’s like 7 inches shorter and a whole lot smaller. At least Curry was trying to play D.

  27. Frank O.

    Curry has one rebound and I can’t believe he watched that last play under the hoop.

    Bricks getting frustrated

  28. Frank O.

    Why the hell is richardson pulling this crap.
    A guy with his skills needs to shut up and just knuckle down. His team is down by 19 and he sucks and jawing means nothing…he just looks small and selfish

  29. Frank O.

    Q helps his team by getting ejected.
    Now if he could arrange a season-long ejection that would be awesome…

  30. Frank O.

    Say what you will about walt, but he knows basketball.
    He was saying Curry is hot and playing with attitude. He said the guards need to get it into his hands..

    He also pointed out that the Celts are in the penalty with a lot of the game to go.

    Bad entry pass…

    NAAAAAATE!!!!!

  31. Frank O.

    But they lost track of the twin twinkies…
    They are getting the line all the time now. keep dumping into the paint.
    The Bricks don’t need perimeter shooting right now.
    They made it back on their interior.

    And where has lee gone????
    He was playing very well.

  32. Sledge

    gotta love that little man!!!

    money time now

    time to make some lineup change i think/hope

    get Jones out

  33. Frank O.

    The Bricks don’t have a guy like Garnett.
    the man steps on the court and single handedly stifles the Bricks mini-run

  34. Frank O.

    David Lee sighting.
    they just noted that lee’s minutes are down byt when he and Robinson are out there the Bricks are better

  35. Frank O.

    owen, no doubt.
    But with guys like Randolph and Curry and Crawford, you don’t want him to score.
    the fact that isiah has him out there with Jones makes no sense.
    then you have two guys who can’t shoot.

  36. Frank O.

    Again, I wrote this before but when the Bricks can hold the opposition under 100, they win most of those games.
    They need to defend.

    Curry spotted Perkins 15 points in the first…he gets 6.8 per game.
    That is a large part of the lead the Ccelts are enjoying

  37. Gorky

    Jerome James, that means the game is over. I’d like to see him play some more of Curry’s minutes.

  38. JoeV

    Frank O. I was not referring to todays game I haven’t gotten home to see it yet. I am talking about every day for the past few years. You will probably understand better if your kid was playing ball and all you heard from the media covering his game is negativity. If I had a problem with the announcers saying negative things about the knicks I would be disagreeing with all of the announcers not just Clyde. I speak about him because he’s natrosous, the worse, no other home team announcers give it to their home team the way he does. Im talking about in comparison. I have no problem with any of the other announcers. CLYDE IS THE WORST! THE REST OF THE ARE JUST BEING CONSTRUCTIVE.

  39. xduckshoex

    David Lee – +6 in 20 minutes.
    Zach Randolph – -10 in 40 minutes.
    Eddy Curry – -22 in 27 minutes.

    Ugh.

  40. Ess-dog

    Ha! frank i was thinking the same thing about jones. with steph out, even though the chemistry is better, we are short a rotation guard and jamal and nate are getting tired. at this point, i’d trade curry straight up for a good 3rd guard. the only way zach can stay is if he is always guarding the worse post scorer. it was scary watching him on KG. and where did balkman go? sure he got 2 quick fouls, but he could’ve helped… we’ve got to trim some of this fat soon. it makes it hard to watch.

  41. Roshi

    13 turnovers for the Knicks is pretty decent. Nate has really helped the team cut down on botched plays.

  42. JoeV

    Just state the facts, No need to be manipulative. The Knicks do not need Clydes help to look bad. There doing a good job of making themselves look bad.

  43. Roshi

    I couldn’t disagree more. I’d love to see all the Knicks announcers and officials openly disgusted with the level of play and strategy of Isiah. Why is it so bad to state what is so painfully obvious to the observant fan?

  44. Ken "The Animal" Bannister

    I think my favorite moment was when we got to hear Clyde’s opinions about the freaking moon and how it affects people, the tides, etc.

    I half expected him to start saying that he sacrifices a virgin goat and eats its heart before every full moon to ward off evil spirits…

    And w/r/t the game, the only reason I could possibly see for Lee’s reduced pt is that (and this assumes that Isiah is a vaguely competent GM) is that he’s still looking to trade Randolph. I mean Randolph had a decent line — 24 pts, 15 rebs, 2 assists, 4 steals. The rumored Bucks trade (some combo of Villanueva, Simmons and Gadzuric for Randolph and Balkman/Chandler) would be a good move (unless Balkman was in the deal). Perhaps he can go to Orlando (for Redick and expiring contracts of Dooling/Garrity/Arroyo) or to LA (for Kwame Brown and Crittendon). Then again, the more obvious reasoning is that Isiah the Coach is trying to validate the moves of Isiah the GM. Schmuck…

    And in the post-game Isiah just said the team has no guts/heart and he has no idea what to do about it. Hey Dolan, why dontcha can him while the papers are going batshit crazy about the Giants. There’s a strategy for ya. Bastids. Grumble, grumble…

  45. Roshi

    4 steals for Randolph has to be some sort of fluke. From what I could tell via radio, his defense was a disgrace.

  46. Frank O.

    Zach was simply outclassed by one of the best players in the game.
    I agree that the Bricks gave up once the celts started to push back.
    Effort from curry was sad.
    i want to see our fighters, Lee, Robinson, Balkman and Jeffries out there.
    They fight.
    Lee getting 20 minutes, Balkman getting 2 is just silly.

    By the way, someone mentioned the idea of making the deal for Artest and then letting him walk in his free agent year.
    that would be brilliant in my book because a lot of salary comes off the books. And you lose two headaches: Curry or randolph and Artest.

    Im all for it even at the cost of Balkman, who would be better off playing somewhere else anyway

  47. jon abbey

    that Clyde post is awesome. WTF?

    one of the best nights of this year was the previous Boston game, with Marv Albert on the national telecast, just ripping every aspect of the organization and team almost from the opening tip. I guess by the above logic, that’s why NY lost that one by 45? too funny.

  48. Ess-dog

    “By the way, someone mentioned the idea of making the deal for Artest and then letting him walk in his free agent year.
    that would be brilliant in my book because a lot of salary comes off the books. And you lose two headaches: Curry or randolph and Artest.”

    Yeah that was the ess-dog. This is the only realistic trade I could see us making with Curry or Randolph while either getting a draft pick and/or some cap relief. And Sacto is the only squad that is almost as dumb as we are. Turning Curry into Artest is a good way out for Isaiah. Unfortunately I could see Zach/Lee/Artest/Crawford/Nate being pretty good, at least a .500 squad. We could lose a few ping pong balls.

  49. Mulligan

    What is up with the random crazies that show up in the commments? Do they come from RealGm? There always seems to be just one, which kind of makes me suspicious that it’s the same guy with different email address or something.
    Iamwutiam gets banned and then JoeV comes up with “80% of the Knicks problem is Clyde Fraz..’s Negative feedback when he’s covering the game.”

    …right.

  50. T-MArt

    “This is the only realistic trade I could see us making with Curry or Randolph while either getting a draft pick and/or some cap relief. And Sacto is the only squad that is almost as dumb as we are. Turning Curry into Artest is a good way out for Isaiah.”

    Ess-Dog, I like your idea, but its unrealistic and would never happen. It would be light years beyond a steal, and Im not talking about getting Artest obviously, but getting rid of one of those contracts, which is why the proposed trade idea is borderline ridiculous and will happen concurrently with Jerome James’ graduation from MTV’s fat camp series.

  51. JoeV Clydes a KnickHater lopsided coverage

    It’s funny but some people cannot realize what bad press can do to a player/Team. They start second guessing themselves, start blaminig eachother react to instigated remarks. The truth will come out eventually. Someone had to be bold and be the first to say it. Whatch his comments closely. Don’t forget he’s smart enough not to make it to obvious but listen closely. WHo’s always the first to critisize when there’s two covering the game. You dont believe stuff like that can cause havock on a team your mistaken. That’s why some coaches would rather not come to NY. Even Phil reffered to the media here as snakes. Lucky he’s not the only allowed to speak his mind.
    I say Fire Clyde!

  52. njhoops

    I was sitting next to a guy at the game today, and we both agreed that if you get Artest and then Derrick Rose via the draft, you have dramatically upgraded the team. Starting five of:

    Artest
    Lee
    Curry
    Jamal
    Rose

    would be very competitive, plus you have Nate and ZR off the bench. (Although I don’t know what we’d have to give up for Artest. )

    Today was a classic display of all the “one way” players the Knicks have – they can either score or play D, but none do both. (Jeffries is as inept an offensive player as there is in the NBA.) Another reason to go after Artest, how many players do it at both ends like he does? I’ll take my chances on his attitude issues.

  53. caleb

    Artest only does it (well) at one end of the court… and he’s on the downside. If you can get him for basically nothing – dump a long-term contract in the process — sure. Otherwise, why bother?

  54. jon abbey

    I wouldn’t be so sure Artest is on the downside, he’ll only be 28 at the start of next season, and he only played 133 games combined in the three seasons before this one, so it’s not like he has so much mileage on him.

    I agree that his offensive game and need for shots is troubling, but he’d still be a major upgrade from bozos like Q and Jeffries. I wouldn’t trade for him, but would be happy to sign him to the midcap for three years in the offseason (I doubt he’d take this, but since he’s certifiably insane, you never know).

  55. Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) Post author

    What is up with the random crazies that show up in the commments? Do they come from RealGm? There always seems to be just one, which kind of makes me suspicious that it’s the same guy with different email address or something.
    Iamwutiam gets banned and then JoeV comes up with “80% of the Knicks problem is Clyde Fraz..’s Negative feedback when he’s covering the game.”

    …right.

    I really doubt that it’s the same person over and over again. There’s always been a few crazies drop by here. I believe there’s a certain percentage of the population that sit at their computers with tin foil helmets.

    Clyde is hurting the team – that’s classic.

  56. z-man

    I love Clyde and find that he is usually in describing fundamental flaws of individual players, offensive/defensive strategies and execution and the mental part of the game. I must admit that having grown up watching him run the point on the ’68-’74 Knicks (the most intelligent and selfless team ever) play a couple of hundred times factors in to my judgment.

    Bottom line today is, a sub-.500 team got its but kicked by the best team in the NBA. This was not about individual performances or substitutions, Lee and Balk weren’t stopping the Celts either. Zach was overmatched vs. Garnett, but who isn’t? Impressive stats aside, Zach made at least 10 dumb/selfish plays, but was still the best Knick player today. Perkins has a career first quarter, reminded me of Lee on his good offensive nights (most pts came off good passes from big 3 after defensive overcommitments, no help D.)

    How dumb was Nate’s 3rd foul? I thought it was a turning point.

    Isiah is still thinking playoffs and thinks turning Zach and Eddy around is the key.

  57. tastycakes

    I dunno, Mike. JoeV’s writing reminds me a whole lot of iamwhatevers from last week.

    Clyde is one of the best color commentators in the business. The Mike Breen / Clyde Frazier combo is as good as it gets, and the Gus Johnson / Clyde Frazier “B team” is ALSO as good as it gets. I’m a Knicks fan living in Austin, TX, and as such am forced to spend the cash on League Pass every year, and let me tell you, there are some bad frickin’ announcers out there in the NBA. I guess in small town places like Memphis or Boston, you need the commentators to pump up your team unnecessarily to make you feel good about yourself as a fan :)

    New York fans want things called fairly, and bless ‘em for that.

  58. tastycakes

    Nice to see, btw, that we didn’t lose by 50 this time.

    When are Nate and D Lee going to start? Bench Eddy and Fred Jones already. Oh yeah, might as well bench Q while we’re at it and let Jeffries play. I still think the guy sucks but would rather see him than Q at this point. How did Fred Jones get ahead of Nate on the depth chart? I’ve never been the biggest Nate apologist or anything, but there is no question he is playing better and more efficient basketball these days. Let him get 30+ a night.

  59. Thomas B.

    I agree that Clyde is hard on the team but it is not like the team does not deserve it. Clyde has an obligation to call the Knicks’ play as it is. And the play, in a word, is discordant.

    Besides, how can you blame Clyde for the poor play? Are the Knicks listening to the radio broadcast during the game? When they watch game film, is Clyde giving a play by play in the film room? If so, is he doing color or is he the lead?

    I have posted a few silly things but I have not placed the tin foil on my head just yet. But the following may qualify me for induction to the “foil club.”

    I think the Knicks should move either Randolph or Curry to Denver for K-mart and two conditional picks. Denver needs someone who can score in the post. The poor defense of Zach or Eddy won’t hurt a Denver team that gives up 105 a night already.

    The Knicks need someone that can defend the interior without eating into too many of Lee’s minutes. K-Mart fits that bill. K-Mart has knee issues so the draft picks are insurance. Plus we need to start stocking more young talent to truly rebuild. Maybe we get this year’s pick and a top 20 protected next year. If K-Mart is hurt, then Lee is the safety net.

    If we move Z in the deal then niether team has to take on additional salary. Denver would get to move Martin without taking on a longer contract.

    Does it make sense or should I grab some tin foil?

  60. jon abbey

    “I guess in small town places like Memphis or Boston, you need the commentators to pump up your team unnecessarily to make you feel good about yourself as a fan :)”

    yeah, poor Boston fans really have it rough these days, especially since October in baseball/football/hoops.

    Tommy Heinsohn is admittedly impossible to listen to, but not because Boston is a “small town”, more in the way that a long-time Yankee fan tends to feel like everything is always about the Yankees and the opposition just happens to also be there.

  61. Mulligan

    When you have a team as bad as this, which runs all the way from James Dolan to Jerome James, I’d say that a good 100% of the blame belongs on the organization and not with Clyde. The last thing I would want to hear is another MSG drone going on about how much potential this team has.. I’ve heard it enough and it just makes me more angry since I actually tried to believe that line at one point.

  62. tastycakes

    “more in the way that a long-time Yankee fan tends to feel like everything is always about the Yankees and the opposition just happens to also be there”

    Sure, and I kid Boston, because Boston can take it, what with their riches of championship caliber squads.

    I’m just saying there is a psychology amongst broadcasters in many markets where they believe they need to openly ROOT for their team. I don’t ever wonder where Clyde’s ‘allegiance’ lies, the dude is a Knick through and through. But he is fair in the way he covers the games, he doesn’t ignore or diminish good performances or great players on the other team, he doesn’t think every call against the Knicks is a bad call, etc.

    Generally speaking, I think that’s something New York fans want out of their broadcasters. Fairness, savvy, a deeper understanding of the game and ability to communicate. Clyde’s got all of that and style to boot.

  63. JK47

    Knicks are still last in the league in FG% allowed. Surely this is Clyde’s fault. On the defensive end, the players can only think of the way Clyde is criticizing them, and can’t remember their defensive assignments. /snark

    Seriously, when you’re dead last in the league in FG% allowed, you need to do something drastic. The Curry/Randolph frontcourt is quite clearly a failure, yet there they are night after night logging major minutes. Every time I remember that both of those guys are signed to multi-year contracts I throw up in my mouth a little.

    Curry should be playing no more than 20 minutes a night off the bench. In that capacity he’d probably be tolerable. I would trade Zach for literally just about anything; in my opinion he has the very worst contract in the NBA. Perhaps Sacto would take him– as someone pointed out upthread, they seem to be pretty dumb. Sacto is giving lots of minutes to some real no-name guys, so maybe they’d like a “name” player like Z-Bo. Aw, who am I kidding?

    No matter who else you have, a Curry/Randolph will never and could never be part of a contending team. If you had John Stockton at the point, MJ at the 2 and Scottie Pippen at the 3, then maybe.

  64. Roshi

    Simple Answer: Isiah wants to justify acquisition of his ‘twin twinkies’ (credit to Frank O. for the name) and is willing to go down with the ship to do so.

  65. Ben R

    I can just imagine Randolph shrugging off Jordan and trying to split the triple team.

    As for our team I am also still in the opinion that in a very specific role Curry could be useful. Whenever he is in the game we run the offense through him and when he starts getting tired or we start to go away from him he goes back to the bench. He is a tremendous offensive talent it just seems as soon as he starts to get it going like last night in the fourth we forget he is there and he does not touch it for a long stretch. If we are not featuring him he should be on the bench because other than his low post scoring he offers absolutly nothing.

    As for Randolph he needs to go as soon as possible. A Lee/Curry/Jeffries frontcourt would not be great defensively but would probably be just about tolerable on defense. Lee playing 35+ and both Jeffries and Curry playing under 30.

    Also I might be the only one but I do not mind Jones getting minutes. He is a solid defender and has a pretty good TS%. (which would be much better if his FT% was at his career average) He is not as good as Crawford and Nate but I do not mind him getting 20-25 minutes a game at guard with Nate and Jamal both getting over 35.

    So with Jamal/Nate/Jones at guard and Lee/Jeffries/Curry at PF/C amd Balkman/Chandler at SF we have the makings of an entertaining and most likely .500 team. That just means we need to get rid of Randolph and Q Rich because they are the real drains on our offense. In fact they are the only players getting minutes other than Balkman and Jeffries that are below average in terms of TS%, and at least Balkman and Jeffries provide good defense and combined they shoot less than Randolph per 40.

  66. Renaldo's agent

    ok, it’s Caleb…

    Renaldo’s TS% was above average last year and probably will get there again, after a terrible start… and he’s by far the best defender on the team… a lineup of Nate, Jones, Renaldo, Lee & Curry would probably be average on defense, and on offense would feature two very good players (Curry & Nate), two very efficient options who can pass and don’t take bad shots(Lee & Balkman), and, well Jones… can switch to Crawford when we need a bit more O.

  67. retropkid

    If you don’t like Clyde as an announcer, here’s a trade:

    Clyde for Zeke, straight up. Clyde would probably be lousy as a coach, making him a slight upgrade over Zeke.

    Zeke would probably be annoying as an announcer, making it pretty much a wash behind the mike.

    Net, net — a solid deal for both sides…

  68. Thomas B.

    Of Curry and Randolph, who is the least effective player?

    I notice that alot of posters here seem to want Zach gone more than they want Curry gone. Is Zach a bigger problem than Curry? I am not happy with either of them but of the two I think Curry is the bigger problem. They are both horrid defensive players, there is no argument there. Niether are good help defenders, man defenders, zone defenders, shot blockers, ect. But Zach at least rebounds the ball well. Defensive rebounds help the defense at least somewhat by reducing second chance points. Zach has had a few 15+ rebound games. Can anyone remember when Curry had 10+ rebounds in a game?

    Zach is better in the post than Curry. Zach has better footwork and a better touch around the paint. Zach’s problem is that he also loves that 18 foot jumper and he refuses to pass out of the double teams. Curry has the sense not to take the 18 foot jumper but he has poor footwork and not the best touch in the paint. Curry, unlike Zach, seems willing to pass out of doubles but lacks the passing ability to do it well.

    So if I am right, that Zach does more things well than Curry does, why do so many people want Zach gone over Curry? Is it the money? Is it that with Zach gone Lee can start?

  69. retropkid

    “Of Curry and Randolph, who is the least effective player?”

    Curry is less effective, though Zach has plenty going against him, not the least of which is Portland’s strong play since he left. Zach also competes with higher caliber counter-parts, ie, most centers in the NBA are bad, so Curry appears to be decent compared to most.

    But — Curry is not decent. He is lousy at the things teams need most from centers — defense, defensive rebounding, shot-blocking.

    Curry had to improve vastly this year to make Zeke look smart. He didn’t. Zeke doesn’t.

  70. cbrooklyn

    “I just want a simple answer….WHY ISNT DAVID LEE PLAYING 40+ MINUTES A NIGHT?!”

    simple answer= isiah is an egotistical,stubborn, self serving, moronic, non coaching, living in the past, cold hearted(for how he’s treating steph), bamboozlin, hypocritical snake in the grass!!!

  71. jon abbey

    Marbury deserves all the kicking anyone wants to give him, he’s essentially been stealing one of the biggest salaries in the league for years, he can take it. I read that his $14.99 shows were being sold for half off now, pretty funny.

    also, Isiah has nothing to do with Lee not playing more. we now know that’s all on Clyde.

  72. Thomas B.

    john abbey,

    I have enough class not to kick a man while he is injured and getting over the death of his father. On the other hand, I am cheap enough to buy a whole mess of Starbury gear if it is on sale for $7.49. Steve and Barry’s here I come.

  73. Renaldo Balkman's Agent

    Caleb, you can pretend to be Renaldo’s agent, but no way am I splitting my 15% with you.

    If you really want a new screen name, I heard the name iyamwutiam is available.

  74. Ben R

    Thomas B. – Curry does alot of things badly in fact he does most things badly but he is a much better inside player than Randolph. Over the last three seasons Randolph has shot 53.9%-55.1% from inside. Curry on the other hand has shot 63.8%-66.6% from inside. That makes him 10% better from the inside than Randolph.

    The idea that Randolph is a good offensive player is a fallacy. He has only exceeded average in TS% once over the last four years. Curry has never been below average. Randolph has not exceeded 47.5% efg% even once over the last four years. Curry has not been below 53.5% over the last four years. So that means the only thing that Randolph actually does that is above average is rebounding. The thing is we have been one of the best rebounding teams over the last three seasons and Randolph’s arrival has actually hurt our rebounding, only a little but he hurt it nonetheless.

    Curry’s game is highly flawed and there are many many centers I would rather have but Curry is legitimatly good at low post scoring. Because of that we should take advantage whenever we can. If we can move him for a more well-rounded center I say leap at it but until then he has at least a little usefulness.

    Randolph on the other hand is just as bad defensively and not nearly as good offensively. We do not need his rebounding so he contributes absolutly nothing.

    So the question is what do we need more with our bad defense, rebounding or offense. If I had to choose I would choose offense.

  75. Ess-dog

    What about Randolph and Balkman for Gasol and Lowry?
    Then you’ve got:

    1 Nate/Lowry
    2 Jamal
    3 Chandler/Jeffries
    4 Lee
    5 Gasol/Curry

  76. jimmy p

    Thomas B

    I was expected to go back to work a couple days after my dad died and my clients, while sympathetic, expected the same work product they had been paying for previously.

    Jon Abbey makes a valid point that the Knicks haven’t gotten a whole lot in return for the top 10 salary they’ve paid out to Marbury. He really shouldn’t sulk (a behavior for which he has few peers) over mild criticism and I’m not sure that he deserves anyone coming to his defense given the last three years.

  77. Caleb

    Curry is a worse player than Randolph, but Randolph’s contract is bigger so I would work harder to dump it — we desperately need to somehow clear those long-term deals.

    Aside from that, the dropoff from Curry to his nonexistent backup is much bigger than the dropoff from Randolph to Lee (since Lee is the better player) so we could more easily afford to drop Zach.

    Ben has the right idea… Curry is a good low-post scorer; when he’s in the game he should get the ball pretty much every time. Then go sit down, because when he’s not shooting, he’s sucking.

  78. Z

    “I would trade Zach for literally just about anything; in my opinion he has the very worst contract in the NBA.”

    There are ten players whose current contracts pay over $10 million a year and run longer than Randolph’s:

    KG; Hinrich; Terry; Nene; Billups; A. Jefferson; Lewis; Howard; G. Wallace; Duncan.

    Of these, KG, Jefferson, Wallace, Billups, Howard, and Duncan all obviously offer way more to their teams per dollar than Randolph does. Terry and Lewis are debatable, and Nene, who was averaging 6.4 and 6.4 before his biopsy came back as malignant, certainly looks, from a purely business standpoint, to be a worse investment than Randolph’s current deal.

    I would still trade Randolph for Terry, Lewis, Nene, or any other of the above named “worse” contracts. Lewis and Terry would probably be bad signings if they were being brought in as free agents, but taking on an extra year of cap hell isn’t such a big deal, considering 2010 is the year to have flexibility. As for Nene, I’d still take my chances with an injury prone, underachieving cancer patient than keep Randolph in the blue and orange past Feb. 21st.

    Other than bringing in the above 10 players in a trade for Randolph, any other move would be a lateral move, and any lateral move that rids us of Zach Randolph is not really a lateral move. It is a move in the right direction because it rids us of Zach Randolph. KMart’s untouchable contract from last year looks pretty damn good now if it replaces Randolph’s.

    I agree that Randolph’s contract is the worst in the league, and I agree that I would trade him for anybody straight up and not care what comes back.

  79. Caleb

    Z makes a decent argument, but I still think that within the next two and a half seasons some team will be desperate enough to take Zach in exchange for a shorter contract.

  80. Ben R

    Caleb – That might be true but that means we have to have Randolph over the next couple of seasons.

    If we want any chance of being a solid team over the next couple of years it needs to be with Lee starting. Zach needs to be gone.

  81. jon abbey

    “As for Nene, I’d still take my chances with an injury prone, underachieving cancer patient than keep Randolph in the blue and orange past Feb. 21st.”

    a classic sentence, all hail the Smiling Weasel’s last major acquisition!

  82. Caleb

    “If we want any chance of being a solid team over the next couple of years it needs to be with Lee starting. Zach needs to be gone.”

    I don’t believe there’s any such thing as addition by subtraction… It’s a coaching decision… if/when Zeke goes, his replacement can start Lee and play Zach 20 mpg, or even not at all, while we wait for a potential trade. (which, like I say, probably will be an option at SOME point). He’s not actually an awful player… just a limited, egomaniacal, overpaid one.

  83. TDM

    Z,

    You mentioned Hinrich. Any thoughts on whether IT’s favorite trade partner would part with Hinrich for Randolph or Curry? Hinrich is having a lousy season, but has shown great court vision in past years. Chi Town needs a low post scorer, so they may be open to entertaining offers from IT once again.

  84. jon abbey

    “I don’t believe there’s any such thing as addition by subtraction”

    are you kidding? do you not see what Portland’s doing this year once they got Z-Me out of there? obviously not the only reason, but they might not be .500 if that trade wasn’t made.

  85. Z

    “I still think that within the next two and a half seasons some team will be desperate enough to take Zach in exchange for a shorter contract.”

    I think Caleb is right; however, I really really really don’t want to wait.

    “You mentioned Hinrich. Any thoughts on whether IT’s favorite trade partner would part with Hinrich for Randolph or Curry?”

    I like Hinrich. His stock is down right now, but he is in many ways the antithesis of Starbury and fills a need that the Knicks have. If the Knicks think they have a legit shot at landing the point guard of their future in the draft then maybe I’d steer clear of Kirk. But, since the Knicks have so many needs, if they can turn Randolph into Hinrich, then they can draft a big or a swingman and not be any worse for it. Then, if Hinrich doesn’t pan out, HE can be moved a year or two from now for a shorter contract (if it would work for Randolph, it would work for Hinrich too, right?)

    Maybe a megadeal could be put together that shakes up both teams and swaps a bunch of overpaid pieces: Bulls get Randolph, Rose, Jones, and Morris; Knicks get Hinrich, Wallace, and Noah/protected draft pick. Something like that.

    Caleb– if the Bulls were willing to take Randolph (straight up) this month, who would you rather come back in the deal: Wallace or Hinrich?

    “I don’t believe there’s any such thing as addition by subtraction”

    The movie “The Cooler” could have been about Marbury, Crawford, Curry, Francis, or Randolph. I’m shocked that you reject the notion of addition by subtraction when your favorite team is a roster full of Coolers.

  86. Frank O.

    Oh, we’re talking trades again, huh?
    Isiah trades are a disaster.
    I believe by Isiah not making a deal the Bricks are better off.

    The man has pulled one boner after another. Unless he is able to dump salary, there is no good trade.

    Adding by subtracting works. Just follow Starbury’s career and you see that virtually everywhere he has left has gotten better.

    If ever there was a team ready to have it pocket picked of young talent, it’s the Bricks. the worst thing that could happen to basketball was Ainge landing KG.

    That gave hope to guys like Isiah, who will continue to find that one idiot GM willing to give up a star for moderate talent and potential upside.

  87. Thomas B.

    Jimmy P

    We all go back to work after the loss of a loved one but few of us have to grieve on a national stage. When your dad died, did it happen while you were at work in the same building where you work? Are you forced to think about it every time you walk into the office. What must Stephon be thinking when he comes to the Garden? “Here i was playing a game for the entertainment of these people while my Dad was dying just a few hundred feet away. I could have been with him. I should have been with him. I was right here.” That has got to be hard on a person.

    Your dad died, sorry for your loss. You take some time off from work. Let’s say you go back to work and for a while your work really suffers. Let’s say your boss notices this and tells you to take more time. If you don’t have to worry about money or loss of your job, you probably take the extra time right? Particularly if you are suffering from depression, which I think Stephon is.

    He has made some huge mistakes and understandably the fans are feed up. It is hard to get sympathy from people when you fail to elevate your team, walk out on the team after an argument with the coach, and keep such a large chip on your shoulder. But his dad is gone and he is recovering from surgery, so I’ll give him a break. I am sure that we can all find plenty of things to complain about next season. For now, my Marbury kicking will go on hiatus. Lets kick Randolph, Curry, and Thomas. That should keep us busy well into the draft when we can kick Thomas for drafting Taj McDaniel with the 5th pick.

  88. JK47

    Isiah trades are a disaster.
    I believe by Isiah not making a deal the Bricks are better off.

    Sadly, this is true. It’s hard to imagine Isiah actually doing something smart.

    I’m appalled that Eddy Curry is averaging only 5.2 rebounds per game. It’s pretty amazing that a 6’11” guy who spends the entire game near the basket can only pull down 5 boards in over 27 minutes per game. That’s .3 rebounds per game above Dwayne Wade’s career average. Pathetic.

  89. jon abbey

    if Steph doesn’t want to be slammed, then he can feel free to give back the quarter of a million dollars per game he gets while he sits out recovering from his borderline necessary surgery. it’s sad that his dad died, but fuck him nevertheless, he’s been a huge detriment to this franchise pretty much since arriving and certainly this season. I find it hard to see how any real Knicks fan can’t see that.

  90. Thomas B.

    john abbey,

    Well I am a “real Knick fan.” I do see that Marbury has not improved the team. I had hoped for more from him. I hoped he would prove he could be a leader and winner. He has failed.

    Marbury is an easy target, but he is just one piece. He didnt bring in Burger King James. He didn’t trade away two lottry picks for a center that can’t pull down 7, block 2, or drop 20 a night. Marbury is only PART of the problem. Marbury is just one ingredient in this horrid stew. Has Curry or Randolph improved on defense since Marbury left? Is Thomas now a better coach? That would be a big no.

    What do you care how much he makes? It is not your money. You don’t write the check. BTW, does the 5 million in charitable contributions count as “giving back” the money?

    I don’t see any reason to be an insufferable, insensitive jerk (speaking generally, not calling you out) just becuase Marbury gets paid 22 million to be the sullen PG of a losing team. It is not worth my time. Now maybe if a person is already an insufferable, insensitive jerk, then they are not going to any extra lengths to beat up Steph and i guess those people will continue to be who they are.

    That said, I think marbury should move on and I hope he is a better player and enjoys more success in his new home.

  91. TDM

    Anyone remember this story. Kurt Thomas, a 100% team guy, had the right idea.

    “DENVER – Isiah Thomas stood in the middle of the Knicks’ locker room like a boxing referee, directing Stephon Marbury and Kurt Thomas to return to their respective corners.

    “I’m not trading you and I’m not trading you,” Thomas, the Knicks president, supposedly shouted at his two feuding players following a win over the Cleveland Cavaliers three weeks ago. “So what do you want me to do?”

    According to one eyewitness, Kurt Thomas came up with a short-term solution: “Just move out of the way so I can kick his butt.”

  92. JK47

    I feel pretty ambivalent about Steph. I was excited when Isiah acquired him but I have to admit I hadn’t actually seen him play very much. When you watch him day in and day out you realize some of his fatal flaws, like the inability to feed the post, for starters. That said, he was certainly one of our better players– and I say “was” because I think there’s a good chance that he just walks away from the NBA entirely rather than come back to the Knicks mess.

    Steph is the symbol of an epically horrific period of Knicks history. He was far from the worst player on the team, but he was the perfect, prototypical Isiah Thomas-era Knick: selfish, terrible contract, defensively challenged, surly, lackadaisical.

    There is one thing that Steph could do to endear himself to me: write a scathing, backstabbing tell-all book about all the behind-the-scenes goings-on at MSG in the Isiah era. You all know that would be an amazing and satisfying read.

  93. Thomas B.

    JK47,

    Very well said about Curry. According to NBA.com, there are 7 guards that pull down more boards that Curry. The tallest of them is McGrady. There are 45 forwards pulling down more than 5.3 per night. Curry should not be out rebounded by Andre Iguodala, Rudy Gay, Travis Outlaw (not to be confused with Bo Outlaw), and That is just awful and inexcusable. But I am sure this is Marbury’s fault somehow. With Marbury out Curry will start playing lock down defense and become the NBA rebounding champ!

  94. Thomas B.

    JK47,

    You make a good point about Marbury and his trouble feeding post players. Marbury is a much better open court player than half court player. it think this is why he played well for the Suns, they ran alot. Until 2005, Marbury played with post players that were swift enough to run down court on breaks (Garnett, Stoudamire). Larry Brown would not let the Knicks run and thus Marbury’s flaws became apparent as his numbers dipped. When Curry and later Randolph came aboard, running was no longer part of the Knick offense. This further marginalized Steph.

    Marbury really only does one thing well in the half court offense and that is pick and roll. (He is fair at getting to the hole but he isnt finishing as well as he once did.) Problem is that he fought with the teams best pick and roll player (Kurt). He never really developed chemistry with the next best pick and roll player on the team (Frye). Since 2005, he was forced to become a distributor in a half court set. He lacks the skill set to do that, so being the stubborn, sullen person he is, he lashed out. Rather than master a new skill set, he asked to have the game changed to suit him. When it became clear that he no longer had the pull to get Thomas to do what he wanted, he pulled himself further into that shell. He needs a change of location. he has 4-5 years left, i hope he finds a place where he can win a few playoff games.

  95. Nick

    Steph is not alone in his inability to feed the post. Nobody on the team can do much more than make a generic mundane toss from around the arc and 5-10 feet away. Even the once a game or so alley oop from Crawford to Curry from last year that led to the notion that they had soem Chemistry” is non-existent.

  96. JK47

    He needs a change of location.

    This is a recurring theme in Steph’s career.

    i hope he finds a place where he can win a few playoff games.

    He’s 30 and is going to be having surgery, so Steph’s future doesn’t look all that bright. He’s not a high basketball-IQ player, so I wonder about his ability to play in the NBA in his thirties. Would he be happy as a role player on a contending team? I don’t know if a contending team would be willing to take on Steph and all his baggage. More likely Steph will either retire or move on to some other basketball purgatory… He’d make a nice L.A. Clipper.

  97. Roshi

    The constant debate on this forum over how Marbury should be perceived got me thinking about the nature of overpaid players. The media and fans love to villify guys like Curry, Marbury, and Jerome James because they are making boatloads of money and not producing sufficient value. But is this their fault? The lack of production certainly is, but I’m not sure the contract is.

    Imagine someone from a competing company sends you an email at work, offering 10x your current salary to do the job you currently do at his company. Naturally, you take the offer (assuming all else is equal).

    However, 6 months down the road, the new company’s bottom line is suffering and shareholders/other employees are trying to pin down the cause. Surely, there are a variety of problems, but your bloated salary is a pretty good scapegoat. Everyone complains that you make too much money and aren’t doing enough to earn it, but meanwhile you’re thinking “I’m doing the same job I was before.”

    The point is, it’s not your fault they offered you too much money. What were you supposed to do, turn down a ton of cash?

    Coming back to the Knicks, if you use this reasoning, it seems strange to blame these overpaid bums for the team’s failures, unless their play has significantly dropped off. Curry, Jeffries, Randolph and others are playing the same (low) quality ball they’ve played their entire careers. When it came time to sign a new contract, they took the best offer available, which is the same as we all would have done.

    It’s fair to complain that Marbury is not even playing or Q-rich’s ‘talents’ have completely disappeared, but I’d blame this Knicks mess completely on the architect, Isiah Thomas. I didn’t see anyone else offering Jerome James $18m over three years.

    As we’ve all documented many times on this forum, these players and this team is performing exactly as you would expect. In the words of Dennis Green, “They are who we thought they were!”

    It makes me think that if I was an NBA player being offered an excessive contract, I might actually think twice, knowing the backlash their would be against me when I can’t live up to the money. Then again, money is money.

  98. Z

    “It makes me think that if I was an NBA player being offered an excessive contract, I might actually think twice, knowing the backlash their would be against me when I can’t live up to the money.”

    It’s the A-Rod syndrome. Someone who could retire the best baseball player that ever played, yet will never live up to the monetary expectation. A guy who’s going to make over $600 million and has seven less championships than Robert Horry who probably made in his career what A-Rod makes in a month.

    The problem with the max contracts is that they escalate in cost as a player declines in productivity. Marbury making $15 million to be an all star doesn’t generate the same amount of ire from fans as Marbury making $20 million to have bone spurs removed so he can recover in time to sign his next deal. The players union can save their most visible members a lot of grief by amending the CBA to allow contracts to start higher and diminish by 10.5% each year.

  99. Caleb

    Me: “I don’t believe there’s any such thing as addition by subtraction”

    Y’all: “are you kidding? do you not see what Portland’s doing this year once they got Z-Me out of there? obviously not the only reason, but they might not be .500 if that trade wasn’t made.”

    I’m not buying… if Zach were playing Channing Frye’s minutes I’d guess Portland would be even better than they are now. Not much, maybe, but not worse. If Zach whined too much to do it, they could let him sit. Portland is better for many reasons but our pal Frye isn’t a big one.

  100. Caleb

    Wallace v. Hinrich is a tough one…

    I like Kirk as a player and he’d be a good fit here… good D, good distributor… but I have to go with Wallace. A Kirk trade would still leave us with tough odds of getting under the cap in 2011… and if we have cap space (which dumping Randolph for Ben might achieve)… well, I bet we could bring in a better player than Hinrich.

    We’d be sacrificing a bit in the short-term, between now and then, but I think it’d be worth it… even if Wallace was an utter and complete crap-out.

  101. Caleb

    “Adding by subtracting works. Just follow Starbury’s career and you see that virtually everywhere he has left has gotten better.”

    They didn’t get better because they subtracted Starz, they got better because in trading him they cleared space to sign new, better players. Just cutting Randolph wouldn’t accomplish anything. (trading him for a shorter contract would, at least by 2010).

  102. JK47

    I’m not buying… if Zach were playing Channing Frye’s minutes I’d guess Portland would be even better than they are now. Not much, maybe, but not worse.

    Channing Frye is only getting 17.6 minutes per game. The Blazers have also found ten minutes per game more this year for the developing LeMarcus Aldridge and five minutes more for solid all-around player Travis Outlaw. It’s actually a classic case of addition by subtraction– subtract Zach Randolph and add more minutes for guys who are better players.

  103. Roshi

    Caleb, I think you are forgetting that if Z-bo currently occupied Frye’s spot he would still be a black hole on offense. Other guys would have fewer opportunities to move the ball around and score, and Brandon Roy wouldn’t look so good anymore. Plus, interior defense would suffer terribly, with Zach letting every opposing slasher stroll unimpeded to the rim.

  104. flitzy

    “Coming back to the Knicks, if you use this reasoning, it seems strange to blame these overpaid bums for the team’s failures, unless their play has significantly dropped off. Curry, Jeffries, Randolph and others are playing the same (low) quality ball they’ve played their entire careers. When it came time to sign a new contract, they took the best offer available, which is the same as we all would have done. ”

    Roshi, I agree with mostly what you are saying, but i think you contradicted yourself calling them overpaid. We (most of us I assume) are sitting at work, talking about these guys. We spend countless hours and dollars at games, stores, websites, and everything else imaginable to support them. There is so much money being made in the sporting indursty, if anything, alot of these guys are underpaid. They may seem overpaid because of how much they make compared to the rest of the world…but when you put it in perspective, for the amount of money they generate, where should all of that money be going? Have them all make a million a year and have the owner pocket the extra 118 mill? I’d rather the player have it.

  105. jon abbey

    “Steph’s future doesn’t look all that bright. He’s not a high basketball-IQ player”

    hahaha, there’s the understatement of the year, roughly along the lines of ‘GWB isn’t a high-IQ president’.

    Caleb, if you don’t see how Randolph leaving Portland was pure addition by subtraction, then I can’t help you. Aldridge is better because Randolph isn’t there. Outlaw is better because Randolph isn’t there. Webster is better because Randolph isn’t there. Roy is better because Randolph isn’t there. these are all players they had already. they don’t really need Frye, he’s their eighth or ninth guy, and they cut Francis immediately. if Oden wasn’t hurt and was playing, it would be even more clear.

    you say: “If Zach whined too much to do it, they could let him sit.” this doesn’t work in the real world, Isiah tried it and had to put him back into the starting lineup after a game or two.

  106. jimmy p

    Thomas B.,

    You sound like a good guy. But, pay me half of what Steph gets paid and you’re free to say whatever you want about me or my deceased dad on this and every other board. It comes with the territory.

    I actually think that Larry Brown was working his magic with Steph (same as he did with Billups) but was then undercut by his gm. If Step had gotten a consistent response from the entire franchise we’d be discussing who best to face in the playoffs.

    The early training camp posts by Mike K. were really prescient and called out this leadership for what it is.

    Hoping for the change to come soon.

  107. Roshi

    flitzy:
    Point taken. But by ‘overpaid’ I meant Knicks players salaries relative to their generally perceived value by other NBA teams/execs. Not in absolute terms.

  108. Caleb

    “Channing Frye is only getting 17.6 minutes per game. The Blazers have also found ten minutes per game more this year for the developing LeMarcus Aldridge and five minutes more for solid all-around player Travis Outlaw. It’s actually a classic case of addition by subtraction– subtract Zach Randolph and add more minutes for guys who are better players.”

    I don’t think any of these players are better because Randolph is gone. They’re better because they’re talented young players on the way up. The team is better because they’re playing more. That would be just as true if Randolph were on the bench (or playing 17 minutes), instead of in New York. The Blazers did it the smart way… they didn’t’ just subtract by buying him out; they made a smart trade to free up mega-dollars two years early, and, as a small bonus, got Frye.

    “If Zach whined too much to do it, they could let him sit.” this doesn’t work in the real world, Isiah tried it and had to put him back into the starting lineup after a game or two.”

    Good, strong coaches can bench highly-paid players… different situation, but think how Calderon was finishing games instead of TJ Ford… or pre-injury Kenyon Martin riding pine in Denver. Just because it would be controversial doesn’t mean it’s a bad move. If it really gets TOO distracting, send the guy home to “rehab” a la Tim Thomas or Steve Francis.

  109. Caleb

    To be clear… I would gladly dump Randolph for nothing but shorter bad contracts… which would get headlined “addition by subtraction” if it ever happened. BUT I think it’s beyond stupid to give away a potential asset for nothing… especially since (and correct me if I have the rules wrong)… if we cut him, and another team signed him for the minimum, he would STILL be on our cap through 2011. The only way to clear the salary is to trade for a shorter one.

  110. nick

    “I don’t think any of these players are better because Randolph is gone. They’re better because they’re talented young players on the way up. The team is better because they’re playing more.”

    You don’t think Zach or other ball stoppers make everyone worse. They limti everyone’s touches which in it’s own way would inhibit growth. As to the team as a whole by dribbling away the shot clock before spittng the ball back out often rushed they force the guy who gets the ball to rush a shot with the clock winding down or pass it off to someone else to do the same. A player like Zach creates lower percentage plays for the other four players almost everytime he touches the ball.

  111. JK47

    I don’t think any of these players are better because Randolph is gone. They’re better because they’re talented young players on the way up. The team is better because they’re playing more. That would be just as true if Randolph were on the bench (or playing 17 minutes), instead of in New York.

    I’d rather have Channing Frye playing seventeen minutes with a good attitude than Zach Randolph sulking on my bench, ruining the chemistry of my good young team.

  112. jon abbey

    and I don’t think anyone (or almost anyone) is saying NY should buy Randolph out, we don’t have a slew of young talented guys waiting to bust out like Portland.

    but your point was a more general one, “I don’t believe there’s any such thing as addition by subtraction”, and to me it’s pretty obvious that that’s false.

  113. Frank O.

    And if you buy out Zach, that is still counting against your cap. If you trade him for someone with a shorter term or expiring contract, you’re better off against the cap.

    the Bricks made some mistakes by simply buying out some of these guys. Their expiring contracts had some value.

  114. Frank O.

    Great article by Hahn over at Newsday. He notes that you can scratch Mike Dunleavy from the Bricks potential coaches. It’s just sad that you can read this about the Bricks and not blink and eye because it’s simply true..:

    The Clippers invented the concept of being a laughingstock franchise. But when they use the Knicks as an example of a dysfunctional franchise, you know things are a mess here in New York.
    A day after Clips owner Donald Sterling called out Dunleavy for his job performance and promoted the idea that the 12-25 Clippers still can rally to make the playoffs — Cue Jim Mora…Playoffs? — Dunleavy fired back at his owner:

    “Are we getting Kobe, Dwyane Wade or LeBron James? I would agree with that, but even with those guys right now, we’d have to go [something like] 34-10 to make the playoffs,” Dunleavy says in the LA Times. “I would only make deals to help our future — anything else is suicide…”

    Dunleavy then adds this:

    “…Anything else and you become the New York Knicks….”

    “Now if you want to do that and take on big contracts and long-term deals to potentially hit a home run or get some kind of turnaround,” Dunleavy says, “that’s not the direction I would go as a businessman or if I owned the team.”

  115. Thomas B.

    jimmy p,

    “You sound like a good guy. But, pay me half of what Steph gets paid and you’re free to say whatever you want about me or my deceased dad on this and every other board. It comes with the territory.”

    Fair point. Hey, for 22 million a year, I would you dance on my father’s grave. Sorry Dad, but you taught me to value money.

  116. daJudge

    JK47 and others re: Curry and Marbury and Randolph. Curry’s abysmal rebounding and inability to toss a decent outlet pass is another double whammy. It prevents a fast break, which would help the Bricks, make them more palatable to watch and feed somewhat into Marbury’s game. The Bricks have other finshers, but there’s no starter. A Center that can’t rebound and outlet is like a cow without you know what. Clearly Randolph is no answer, but he can board, at least statistically. Which rebounds end in easy hoops? My guess is very few. To me, it demonstrates the lack of compiling a team with complimentary players. No insight, no synergism-really the opposite. That’s why I’m not a big stats guy in hoop. One quick thing on Clyde. He’s negative because the Bricks are awful, plain and simple.

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