Knicks Morning News (2018.09.24)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks, Noah could reportedly finalize buyout as early as Monday
    (Sunday, September 23, 2018 8:45:36 PM)

    The Knicks could officially finalize a buyout with center Joakim Noah as early as Monday or Tuesday.

  • [NYPost] Ex-coach says everyone should cool it with Kevin Knox hype
    (Sunday, September 23, 2018 7:58:47 PM)

    George Karl says the media may want to put the brakes on the runaway hype for Knicks rookie Kevin Knox. The legendary coach told The Post he’s seen summer-league studs come back to Earth once fall arrives and the NBA’s regular season starts. Karl was in Albany on Saturday for the screening of the new…

  • [NYPost] Joakim Noah on the verge of ‘heartbreaking’ Knicks split
    (Sunday, September 23, 2018 10:37:44 AM)

    Knicks center Joakim Noah won’t be at Media Day on Monday as the Knicks center is still on the verge of being waived through the stretch provision, according to sources. According to sources, the buyout should finally become official either Monday or Tuesday, and the Knicks’ exact cap savings will depend on how much Noah…

  • 93 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.09.24)”

    I really had hoped that Noah would have worked out for the Knicks. It’s nice to see a hometown kid make it here. But Noah is lost. His skills evaporated. He turned to PEDs. He refused to alter the mechanics of his stupid shot. Now there’s no empathy from me for him. He’ll have stolen every dime paid to him by Jim Dolan.

    I’m really surprised at the articles with trade possibliities for Butler – even Zach Lowe has Minnesota getting young players + a pick. If we’ve learned anything about these situations, it’s that the team under duress (MIN) has always gets less than you think. Boston traded a premium pick for Kyrie, true, but Kyrie had 2 years left on his contract, and Isaiah was a broken asset. Derozan was traded for Kawhi but Derozan’s contract is not a positive asset. Now that Glen Taylor has mandated a trade, why in the world would Minnesota get anything but crap offers?

    IMHO, that roster spot is worth paying the extra $6.5E6 for 3 yrs, especially given the player development and incremental improvement program are preaching and have practiced since Perry got hired.

    Crying about paying a few million in this instance (and probably in THJr’s too as I think he’s gonna blow up this season) is the definition of penny wise and dollar foolish.

    Butler is truly an elite player. There will always be a bidding war for him despite his contract status, list of preferred teams, etc. It’s just not very often that a team gets a chance to add 10+ wins without having to sway one of very few free agents. I think Minnesota will get a similar package to the Spurs, but hopefully without foolishly viewing someone like DeRozan (and his contract) as an asset.

    Now that Glen Taylor has mandated a trade, why in the world would Minnesota get anything but crap offers?

    If only one team is interested, then you’ll get a crap offer for sure. If many teams are interested, they have to bid against each other.

    Think of an auction.

    Let’s say I’m putting my Vincent van Gogh painting on the block.

    Is everyone going to give me a crap offer because I announced my sale?

    Not when dozens of rich people all want it and have to outbid each other to actually seal the deal. It depends on the amount of interest. A LOT of teams want Butler.

    IMHO, that roster spot is worth paying the extra $6.5E6 for 3 yrs, especially given the player development and incremental improvement program are preaching and have practiced since Perry got hired.

    Crying about paying a few million in this instance (and probably in THJr’s too as I think he’s gonna blow up this season) is the definition of penny wise and dollar foolish.

    I’m not even up in arms about the decision to stretch Noah because, even though I disagree with it, that contract was going to end in disaster the second it was signed.

    But my god, this is an incredibly foolish way of viewing that decision. A single roster spot is worth $6.5m in dead cap room?! Dude. This team employs Emmanuel Mudiay, Ron Baker, and Noah Vonleh. If you want to create a roster spot it ain’t hard to do.

    As for THJ, the guy makes $18m a year. That is not “a few million.” The contracts you’re writing off as no big deal (the stretched Noah AAV + THJ’s deal) add up to around $24.5m a year, or almost a quarter of the total NBA cap, or one full max contract for some players. It’s a huge amount of money that we’re getting next to no value from. We done fucked up!

    Noble, saying that the 24.5 is “next to no value” is not honest.y The 6 million for Noah is no value. Hardaway is an overpay but he is in his prime and is playing games for us. He’s not worth 18 million, but he’s not worth nothing either.

    I get what you’re saying but that’s a gross exaggeration.

    Frank @ 2 – Surprised?

    We’re talking about a certified stud; two time All-NBA. a top ten two-way player in the league and the best shooting guard in the NBA; just last week he turned 29 years old; serious about winning with an of the charts work ethic; culture setter and proper role model for youth. No bad habits plus I have to admit, he’s really easy on my eyes. Its like having Dwayne Johnson asking you out but you’re like “I don’t know if I’m ready… plus I really like Denzel”.

    Knowing that he passed on Doncic and now Butler…can’t wait to see on whom Perry bets his career on. This is a man who has worked his entire adult life to become a GM, – so naturally, he’s going to hold to his chair as long as possible. All I hear rhetoric of slow and building the right way…blah blah blah and I’m not buying it; but it seems like I’m the only one so, TBD, I guess.

    “Scared money don’t make none”. – Morrey and Ainge are elite cause they’re not afraid to take chances. When wrong, they cut dogs asap. Its the only way…and the right way.

    From the article Bob posted yesterday – had to laugh:

    If you give a player a no-trade clause, they have you by the balls,” the former GM said. “They can do whatever the f**k they want and there’s nothing you can do to force that player into listening to you or doing what you need him to do. And if they aren’t happy, they can hold a gun to your head and say, ‘I’ll only accept a trade to this one team,’ and you’re going to get pennies on the dollar. I don’t understand why owners ever agree to it. How much sense does it make to give that to a guy? Most of the really good players make more money if they’re traded because they have a big trade kicker, so they have an incentive to want a trade! … Some teams do things that are totally against the rules like give the guy way more flights than he can get and fly the players’ family out private… They’re going to have their a** kissed to such an amazing degree that being traded isn’t a big deal for those superstar players. It’s a big deal for a minimum player, it’s a big deal for a lot of players, but not them. It’s almost the dream scenario for some guys, and the organization is getting absolutely f****d in the deal, which is why you can’t put yourself in that situation! The no-trade clause is the dumbest clause that exists in any deal.

    Giana, rather than debate some of the finer points of your post, I’ll just ask: how did Perry pass on Doncic?

    What am I missing about waiving Noah?
    It’s a win win, we gain max slot, a roster spot, no locker room beef from a guy who is not going to play, more minutes for Mitch and Kornet, we don’t have to attach an asset to move Lee since we re under the cap!

    I think she means we didn’t make a play for doncic and give up an asset to move down. She doesn’t like the patient approach from Perry and Mills…

    @12 I know what she means, but you can’t just throw crap out there without specifics. “I can’t believe Phil didn’t sign Durant!” Well, first you have to know whether there is a realistic chance – whether the team would even deal with us. Second, you have to give some idea of what a reasonable offer would be. Third, you have to make a compelling case as to why the reasonable offer you propose would be better than the one made by whatever team did move up to get him. And last, you have to talk about the team you end up with – why it’s credibly better despite losing whatever assets it took in the trade.

    There’s plenty of stuff to be frustrated by with the Knicks, but “he passed on Doncic” is not one of them.

    The relationship between the player and his shoe company is probably more stable and long-lasting than the player’s relationship with their franchise.

    Also thought that was a good quote from the article on HoopsHype. It explains why it’s easy for someone like Kyrie to give up $5 mil a year to come to the Knicks – his sneaker deal is FAR more lucrative.

    Hi Rama: Same as Butler, didn’t even bother calling Thibs. Doncic was traded and Perry passed. Didn’t even bother finding out what it would cost us. Same with Bamba, only took the meeting one day before draft just so that he looks like a pro and that he’s doing due diligence. If he trades up for either Doncic or Bamba, then he takes a risk and his drafting judgement is highly questioned; if he picks 9th then he does OK relative to where he’s picking. Again, Perry minimized his career risk.

    Noble, saying that the 24.5 is “next to no value” is not honest.y The 6 million for Noah is no value. Hardaway is an overpay but he is in his prime and is playing games for us. He’s not worth 18 million, but he’s not worth nothing either.

    And last season he posted a career high BPM of -0.1 (WS48 has been kinder to him in the past FWIW but not appreciably so). I think you could find similar production at the minimum or with exceptions. I stand by “next to no value.”

    Giana…you’re posts give this idea that Perry has been GM for years now and hasn’t made any big moves and we’ve been slowly rebuilding for 3 or 4 years. We haven’t.

    The rebuild JUST started. It feels like forever bc we’ve had past GMs who were trying to win now but it didn’t work so we sucked but we weren’t developing youth. Really last season was the first of the rebuild. Two to three seasons for a proper rebuild is not a long time. And this season hasn’t even started yet. Patience!

    Its like having Dwayne Johnson asking you out but you’re like “I don’t know if I’m ready… plus I really like Denzel”.

    lmao

    good one.

    I’m still holding out for Scarlett Johansson

    Giana you’re going to have an impossible time convincing this audience that it’s the right time for Perry to go all in. Have you been a Knicks fan for a while? Isiah Thomas made the kind of moves you’re talking about.

    We’re a bottom 4 team in the league. We have the opportunity, if we do nothing this year, to add a max player and a top 4 pick in the draft next year. So we’re going to do nothing. Not because it helps Perry stay in his chair another year, but because it’s absolutely positively the right thing to do.

    And I respect Perry’s patience. It’s actually harder for him to keep his job by putting out a terrible product next year for a boss that has never shown a willingness to rebuild.

    Doncic a Knick? Who was against that? I feel like the support for making him a 6’9 Manu in New York was pretty universal. I don’t remember what we had to trade for him.

    I don’t remember what we had to trade for him.

    We offered Jowles but Atlanta was holding out for both him and Z-Man so we declined.

    We even stretch waived ruruland and er to make cap space for the move but it didn’t work out, unfortunately.

    Yeah, it’s hard to imagine a scenario where the Hawks choose to take the #9 pick over the #5 pick for Doncic. Maybe if Perry has incriminating photos of Travis Schlenk exposing himself to women back in college. (But, then again, Cuban probably would have had those photos, too, so it’s a wash).

    Brian has superstar ceiling for sure, he never once played with a decent Point Guard. You have to pay a guy with his kind of talent.

    Brian has superstar ceiling for sure, he never once played with a decent Point Guard. You have to pay a guy with his kind of talent.

    +1

    If we don’t, Reddit will give him the max and we’ll be rebuilding the forum for another 8 years. 🙂

    Book it–ruruland and er will be vastly more productive posters now they’re in a system more suited to their talents. Mean comments on Carmelo Anthony’s instagram aren’t going to respond “FOH” to themselves.

    We offered Jowles but Atlanta was holding out for both him and Z-Man so we declined.

    Not exactly. Way beck when, Isiah offered Italian Stallion, Captain Merlin + 2 #1’s for my expiring deal, but IS drew a lifetime ban and CM opted out to sign for more $$$ with Duckerblogger in Beijing. Wisely, Isiah inked me to a lifetime max deal with a NTC, which I refused to waive…I mean, who wants to post for freakin’ Peachtree Hoops?

    Didn’t you see the drafts hoodie Cronin has been writing all summer? I’m confident this season he’ll shut up all the haters #StayCron1n.

    Giana, I buy your argument that Butler is valuable and Minn will get a lot for him (especially because they don’t care where they trade him). But that doesn’t mean he’s right for us. by your own argument, we would have to outbid everyone for him. You are prob talking Kanter, Knox, Robinson, and our pick. Then the first year he’s here, we are going to win 7 games (and give Minn that pick) and he’s not going to want to return.

    I guess what I’m saying is, I agree Denzel is hot, but he’s not for me.

    During my honeymoon I got banned from r/nba for telling someone they were a moron for calling PPG a better stat than any “advanced” stats out there, in response to a claim that anyone who “believes in” advanced stats is, himself, a moron.

    So I’m also deciding to refuse to waive my NTC. Either Mike K. stretches me so I can sign in Minnesota or I’m happy to be a 12th man this year, unless a certain new poster keeps spouting nonsense about how long-term strategy is merely a way to keep one’s job safe, as opposed to the Billy King school of management which holds that to keep your job, you trade every asset you have for aging former stars en route to a 49-win ceiling.

    But that doesn’t mean he’s right for us.

    The win curve exists.

    We are beholden to it. It makes no sense to add a 10-15 WAR player to this team as it currently exists.

    1) Find the excellent players on rookie contracts.
    2) Sign max-quality veterans once you have a >40 win core.
    3) Cross your fingers, pray for no injuries, and hope that your team gets hot during the playoffs.

    We offered Jowles but Atlanta was holding out for both him and Z-Man so we declined.

    You’re remembering it wrong. We’re tried to get out from Jowles’ deal (as in, what is his deal?), but they wanted ptmilo as a sweetener, and we said No.

    I think anyone would pay the supermax to have Cavan back, though.

    If I get stretched to open up two max slots for Cavan and Silverman I will begrudgingly understand

    Butler to the Knicks is about as dead as gravity effect posts on this board.

    Many people thought it was bad for Minnesota that Butler waited so long to request a trade, but it’s been a huge blessing in disguise for them. It got a lot of NBA front offices looking at their rosters and either saying we’re not good enough, we need a guy like Butler, or we can be competitive if we add him. I’m a bit surprise at the sheer number of interested teams rumored (people have takes about Knicks, Nets, Clippers, Raptors, Pistons, Heat, Kings, Rockets, Blazers, Sixers, Cavs, Bucks and Wizards, which is almost half the league), but there’s no way now that the Knicks can find a deal that isn’t too expensive for us with all those teams lobbing prospective offers Minnesota’s way.

    Just stay the course, keep building.

    It was a blessed time to have those guys. Makes sense that they found greener pastures once the inevitable fall of the vaunted 2012-13 team came. Meaning, like, the very next year.

    I think they were out by the time Bargnani was rehabbing his elbow after that monstrous poster dunk. Truly the moment that this Knicks dynasty jumped the shark.

    2) Sign max-quality veterans once you have a >40 win core

    Two questions (for you or anyone else):

    1. Is Porzingis, Zion Williamson, Kevin Knox, Frank Ntilikina, Tim Hardaway, and Mitchell Robinson a >40 win core?
    2. Is Kyrie entering his age 27 season the right quality max free agent to add to that core?

    I feel like I could go either way with both questions, but my desire to see some competitive basketball might push me towards saying yes even if it’s a little premature and Kyrie isn’t the optimal max free agent.

    The alternative is to let that core play a year to prove it’s a playoff team, and then add a mid-1st round draft pick and a max free agent in 2020 (when we could have $45-50 million in cap space if we don’t stretch Noah). This is probably the smarter plan, but if the Knicks are stretching Noah I think that proves they’re not willing to wait til 2020.

    During my honeymoon I got banned from r/nba for telling someone they were a moron for calling PPG a better stat than any “advanced” stats out there, in response to a claim that anyone who “believes in” advanced stats is, himself, a moron.

    I used to be an Oakland Raider fan. Since they hired Jon Gruden and traded Khalil Mack, I jumped ship. Fuck the Raiders. I hope they lose every game from now on until the remainder of time. I’m rooting for the Rams now. Fuck it.

    I have made a major heel turn on the Raider board where I hang out, and I’m seeing how much shit I can talk about what a fucking moron Jon Gruden is until they ban me. It’s kind of awesome.

    I have made a major heel turn on the Raider board where I hang out,

    heel turn

    I love it.

    I’m contrarian by nature. So in every forum I post in I’m typically a pain in the ass but not rude enough to ban. I don’t do it to troll or purposely annoy people. When I see a consensus forming that I think has strayed too far from my personal perception of the middle, I like to take the other side.

    If you say Melo was a superstar, I’m going to take the other side.

    If you say Melo was an average player, I’m going to take the other side.

    If you say I’m glad Melo is gone….I got nothing. Me too. 🙂

    Hubert, there are too many “ifs” in that list to answer, especially Knox. But if Knox and Zion both live up to expectations? Probably…? I mean, it could be 30 wins. But it could be 40. Just not enough information to say right now.

    Adding Kyrie, though, I have come to the other side: I think we should do it. As a FA, with no assets lost in a trade it would be hard to do better, since KD isn’t actually coming. And with KP back, and even modest improvement from Frank and Timmy and decent play from Knox and Robinson, we won’t likely be in the lottery after next year anyway. So, we may as well sign good FA. Kyrie at 27, despite the knees, would be a good FA.

    @46 Similarly – I used to be a San Diego Charger. Since the Spanos Family, the Cheap and moronic owners, moved the team to LA I jumped ship. Fuck the team formerly known as the San Diego Chargers. I hope the injuries and incompetence continue and they lose every game from now on until the remainder of time. I’m rooting for the Rams now. Fuck it.

    I even went to the Rams Chargers game at the Coliseum yesterday (that stadium is ancient)with some friends who are Ram fans and was rooting hard against the Chargers . They didn’t disappoint – missed extra point, blocked punt resulting in a Ram TD and an injured punter and a loss. All in all a great day to be an ex Charger fan.

    I predict Butler will end up on the Clippers. They have the young assets and will throw in a first round pick to make it work. The Logo will make it happen.

    I hope Perry and Mills stay the course and don’t get a Jones for the next shiny object. Play out this year with what they have, see how KP is when/if he comes back, suck and get a top 5 draft pick, and enter FA with cap room next summer. Hope springs eternal….

    1. Is Porzingis, Zion Williamson, Kevin Knox, Frank Ntilikina, Tim Hardaway, and Mitchell Robinson a >40 win core?
    2. Is Kyrie entering his age 27 season the right quality max free agent to add to that core?

    Under normal the definition of “contender” in the NBA (53+ wins or so) I think there’s a decent chance that adding Kyrie to that mix would get us there. It would take some luck, maybe even an unusual amount, but it’s possible.

    The problem is the current uneven talent distribution in the NBA kind of throws that definition into flux. I’m not sure 53-59 wins even gets you a non-zero chance at winning the title anymore barring certain circumstances (injuries that are healed by the playoffs, etc.). To be clear, it’s also far from certain we’d even meet that bar.

    Now, I’m sympathetic to the argument that a multi-time 50+ win team, even without much room for improvement, would be the best thing to happen around these parts since the Clinton administration. I guess after all these years I lean more towards taking as long as we need to maximize our chances at genuine contention. I don’t think the Kyrie approach guarantees the win total some people do, and even if it does it’s unclear to me how much that’s worth.

    If I get stretched to open up two max slots for Cavan and Silverman I will begrudgingly understand

    Sorry, I guess I’m a dirty old man, but I have to say when I read this I cringed a little (=:

    I think it’s time for a moratorium on the Zion Williamson talk. He’s a great prospect, but you need lots of luck to get into the top of the lottery, even more now than ever, and if it’s one thing the New York Knicks ain’t got, it’s luck.

    I just simmed the lottery five times on Tankathon, and the Knicks got:
    Bol Bol
    Quentin Grimes
    Nasir Little (yay! Zion was still on the board too)
    Quentin Grimes
    Quentin Grimes

    1. Is Porzingis, Zion Williamson, Kevin Knox, Frank Ntilikina, Tim Hardaway, and Mitchell Robinson a >40 win core?

    Porzingis: ACL and wasn’t a productive offensive player before it
    Zion: not yet a Knick, unlikely to be a Knick, but I want him to be a Knick
    Hardaway: has no long-term future with the franchise beyond 2020
    Knox: has never played a minute of NBA ball
    Mitchy Boy: ” ”
    Ntilikina: allegedly an NBA player but perhaps the worst offensive rotation player in the league right now

    2. Is Kyrie entering his age 27 season the right quality max free agent to add to that core?

    If he’s the best PG available and the Knicks have that 40+ win core locked up, sure. He’s an elite offensive player at perhaps the most important offensive position in the NBA, and those don’t hit the open market all that often.

    Too many hypotheticals right now.

    Yeah, Zion Williamson is already a Knick in my mind and I’ll be looking at Duke box scores the same way I treat the Yankees AAA affiliate in Scranton. I never bothered to read The Secret but I think that’s how it works.

    Two other things that favor Kyrie: 1. It hurts Boston, 2. The 2020 class really isn’t very impressive.

    Re: Hardaway, i think we’re all a little too cynical about his expected production. He’ll never match 50% of his salary and isn’t more than a 5th or 6th option but if he’s at SG he’s good enough to be a slight positive on both ends of the court.

    I believe that the Knicks will be a bottom-7 team this year. Very hard to see where they are in that mix, but probably not the worst in the league. If they have the worst record, they have a 27.4% chance for a top-2 pick. If 7th, a 16.3% chance. So let’s just accept, per the numbers, that the Knicks are unlikely to get Zion or Barrett, and make our prognostications accordingly.

    Also, tankathon is too optimistic about the Knicks, having us 6th. Chicago, Brooklyn, and Phoenix are a tier above us. I’m very confident we’re in the bottom 3, interchangeable with Sacramento and Atlanta.

    1. Funniest thread in months. Jowles, you are a hero for getting banned from reddit. Their loss.

    2. Re win curves, Kyrie and tanking. The problem is you can’t have a ‘single cycle’ tank that goes indefinitely. At some point your lotto picks become due for extensions and you lose all your cap flex. This is about to happen to Philly. So IF your model is draft the first phase of a team then push it over the top with FAs, you need to time it. Our FA window is going to be 2019 and 2020. If we don’t have the makings of a winning team by then we’re basically re-entering a new cycle and have to start trading some of our current ‘building blocks’

    It’s part of the frustration of the failures of the last few years. We haven’t accumulated enough assets because we were too busy trying to eke out the 8th seed to a)pick high and b) trade vets for picks. So now we have a few young players who, if we squint hard, may amount to the basis of a good team. But we either go pretty much all in over the next two summers and risk them amounting to no more than a middle tier playoff team or fold and buy back in.

    2. Re win curves, Kyrie and tanking. The problem is you can’t have a ‘single cycle’ tank that goes indefinitely. At some point your lotto picks become due for extensions and you lose all your cap flex. This is about to happen to Philly.

    Absolutely. And Philly timed it perfectly — they had a freaking max slot in a 52-win core! — but LeBron went to LA anyway.

    There’s a point where you push the chips in, and that can be a hard thing to time. Certain “new” posters (it’s probably reub anyway) are failing to identify this moment as a time to definitely, deeeeeefinitely not push the chips in.

    If we don’t have the makings of a winning team by then we’re basically re-entering a new cycle and have to start trading some of our current ‘building blocks’

    Correct, which is why I think it’s a good idea to trade KP while his perceived value is high. It’s a pretty serious question mark that he’s going to be a true franchise player, but it’s NOT a question mark that he’d fetch lots of assets in a trade.

    Not exactly. Way beck when, Isiah offered Italian Stallion, Captain Merlin + 2 #1’s for my expiring deal, but IS drew a lifetime ban and CM opted out to sign for more $$$ with Duckerblogger in Beijing.

    What really hurt is the picks we traded for Ted Nelson and what they turned into. True to our usual form, we will inevitably end up signing the posters we could have drafted in the first place with the picks we gave up way past their prime on ridiculous contracts.

    Only ruruland surpassed Ted Nelson as a high volume/low efficiency poster.

    (can’t even count reub et. al, too freakin’ pathetic)

    I don’t think we’ve done much lately that was clearly wrong other than overpay for Hardaway and Baker (and the Baker deal is irrelevant). I wouldn’t have made the Hernangomez deal, but I don’t think it’s going to turn into a disaster and I like Robinson with KP better.

    We were in a terrible position a few years ago given the lack of picks. We are in good shape now. It’s going to be YEARS (like 3-5) before we know what KP, Frank, Knox, and Robinson are going to become. They are babies. We have plenty of time to evaluate each of them, see how some of the other young players come along, and decide what we are going to do next. I think we should just keep accumulating assets via trade and FA and possibly even EVEN roll some of the assets we have now into better players. As long as we don’t overpay significantly we’ll keep getting better and remain flexible.

    I’m pretty optimistic even though I don’t expect us to be any good until KP is back.

    “Ted Nelson”

    Ted Nelson was insightful at times, but he would rip apart every sentence of every post and expect a response to all of it or he’d attack you and suggest he won the debate. He never understood that not everyone wanted to dedicate their life to arguing with him. He was draining. I have a tough time letting go sometimes, but he was max player at never letting go.

    Ted was a smart guy, but his demands for original research put me right over the edge on several occasions.

    If you say I’m glad Melo is gone….I got nothing. Me too. 🙂

    Ugh I hate when you agree with me.

    I’m rooting for the Rams now. Fuck it.

    This is like saying, “I’m rooting for the Nets now. Fuck it,” which is a real sign that the Raiders are in irredeemable-shit territory

    Ugh I hate when you agree with me.

    lol

    That’s just means I’m wrong. 🙂

    @66 The Raiders probably feel it’s better to leave Oakland for Vegas on a bad note. I suppose there’s less emotional pull if you piss off the fan base to point they’re like “good riddance muthaf@^&$as!!” instead of “noooo pls God don’t go/save our Black Hole”.

    By the way – having lived out here since the Rams came back to LA, my observations are that the Rams’ fan base is mostly made up of old heads (40 and up) who grew up with the team before they left for St. Louis in the 90’s. A lot of the teens and 20-somethings root for other teams (like the Niners). Oh, and they’re some Raider holdovers too (who will be thrilled to soon have another reason to make weekend pilgrimages to Sin City – as if the I-15 didn’t have enough traffic on a Friday afternoon).

    That’s a question I’ve always asked myself, like, does anyone really care about the Rams or the Chargers now except from their old cities probably hating them? I’ve always lived in environments where team relocation was literally impossible and given zero consideration ever, so it’s hard for me to conceive two franchises moving to a new market where people have no attachment to them or to the sport even. I guess being in LA already brings tourists and high end rich people by default, but it seems not much to fill a big football stadium.

    @69 I don’t know about the Chargers – like, will San Diego folk travel 2 hours north on a Sunday to stay loyal to their team? I can see them putting in great effort to cultivate a youth movement of new fans. That said, I still can’t see how they won’t permanently play second fiddle to the Rams: like, the city was hyped to get them back in LA and the new stadium complex they’re building in Inglewood will be owned by them (while the Chargers will mainly be tenants).

    With the Rams, I can say people definitely care since they originally started in LA. And more importantly, they’re were good last year, they’ve started well this year, they have a top defense and a young franchise QB.

    Ted was a classic example of this board valuing “chemistry” over analytics. Personally, I think we gave up on him too quickly. He’s probably posting productively somewhere else right now, and we could have gotten at least a future consideration for him.

    Jon Abbey too. He was a curmudgeony locker room cancer that that had started to negatively influence some of the younger posters here, but man, it his prime, he was the Patrick Ewing of this blog and all we got in return for him was the posting equivalent of Luc Langley and Travis Knight.

    Jon Abbey, poster of legend. The Zaza Pachulia of the mid-aughts. His mission to destroy Dolan has been sadly unsuccessful. You can’t live on hate alone.

    I liked both Ted and jon. Shame that both chose to flout multiple cease and desist orders, especially abbey, who took it way too far with his unnecessarily over-the-top harping on Silverman’s schlocky prose. It’s not like the ban-hammer is on a hair trigger around here.

    Ted was like Bernard King. He came back from his injury for a brief encore, but sadly simply wasn’t quite the same.

    I’m trying to figure out where Butler might end up. I was hot on Kawhi going to Toronto, and turned out to be right about that because I felt it made sense with what I thought both teams wanted. The pundits were just like, who’s rich and can afford him, and picked the usual suspects, like the Lakers, Philly and Boston. In this case, I think the pundits are not thinking about Minnesota’s motivation. Thibs wanted to keep Butler because he wants to win now. I don’t think he will make a trade that doesn’t give him back useful players so he can compete in the West. The receiving team also has to want to win now. So if you consider the list of teams posted above (Knicks, Nets, Clippers, Raptors, Pistons, Heat, Kings, Rockets, Blazers, Sixers, Cavs, Bucks and Wizards), I think that eliminates the Kings, Cavs, Knicks and probably Nets. Philadelphia is probably out, because even though I am sure they want him, I don’t think they can offer enough win-now players for him to get him without losing players they want to keep. With that in mind, from that list, I think the Wizards have a good chance. They can trade Beal and something else for him and immediately get better. If he doesn’t re-sign, then they save cap space for the next year. So that is my prediction, but it is not a firm one.

    The Clippers would be my second pick. They are willing to spend money, have stuff to trade and he wants to be there; but they are a much smarter organization than they used to be and I suspect they may find the asking price too high. As a dark horse, I suggest OKC. They could trade Roberson, Patterson and Fergsuon for him and go all in for this coming season. They would then be in salary cap hell if they re-signed him, and I have no idea if they are willing to do that.

    One thing I can predict confidently is that within 3 months Thibs will no longer have GM responsibilities. I just can’t imaging that the Timberwolves’ owner is happy with Thibs. Not only did he have to overrule Thibs to get the franchise to make the correct decision that trading him right away was best, but he can’t be happy that Thibs didn’t figure out that Butler wasn’t going to stay until now. I predict a new GM. But he needs time to do the search and it’s better to leave the current management structure in place until Butler is actually traded. Who he picks could be a surprise, but I would actually expect Billups to be a serious contender. He played for Minnesota and wanted to return as a player when he was a free agent but couldn’t. Maybe he will go back now.

    I don’t watch the NFL much because there are too many reasons to not watch the NFL. Can anyone explain to me why teams are still stuck in the Stone Age when it comes to going for it on 4th down?

    “You gotta punt it here.”

    “Two timeouts and the 2-minute warning.”

    ::immediately gives up two consecutive 1st downs and loses game::

    1. Is Porzingis, Zion Williamson, Kevin Knox, Frank Ntilikina, Tim Hardaway, and Mitchell Robinson a >40 win core?

    If this is even close to obvious next summer then we will have won way too many games to have a shot a Williamson. Unless he falls way down from sucking in college, natch. But probably not.

    At some point we’ll have to push in our chips but if that time is next summer they’ll probably be doing it because they think the money / cap situation is forcing a move, not because it’s obvious that we’ve got a winner. I am enjoying these press conferences that are boiling down to “No, sorry, the Knicks are really bad. I mean, we are just absolute shit. We’re gonna take a wait and see approach for the forseeable future, because hoo boy, garbage fire.” It’s really uplifting, the way honesty can be.

    At some point we’ll have to push in our chips but if that time is next summer they’ll probably be doing it because they think the money / cap situation is forcing a move, not because it’s obvious that we’ve got a winner.

    That’s the part I don’t like about their otherwise excellent press conferences. “No, we’re not going to rush things. We’re going to be patient in developing this team slowly. Yes, we are making moves specifically around clearing up cap room to make a move for a star player next season, but other than that, we’re all about being patient and developing this team slowly.”

    Well, they didn’t hire Fizdale for nothing. They clearly expect him to have a big impact on player development. The way I saw Mills and Perry’s statements is that they think what we have plus the first rounder this year is enough young talent to build the team around a superstar.

    I don’t think that’s necessarily the wrong approach, just that it will take some lucky breaks in terms of those youngsters becoming very good players for this team to be good. As long as they don’t 1) trade them on stupid deals 2) don’t overpay the wrong guys on free agency, it’s the most solid plan we’ve had in a while with the Knicks.

    The reason I hope so much the Knicks get a top 5 pick this season is because it gives some insurance in case those options are badly handled by the FO. There is a conceivable scenario in which the Knicks have this core, plus a guy like Williamson / Barrett / Little / Reddish and then adding a star looks much better.

    Theres so much that could go wrong still, but I’m more hopeful they don’t screw up then certain they will, so I guess it’s a big upgrade from the Phil years and before that.

    Oh yeah, they’re at least saying the right things and not doing anything plainly counter to their stated goals just yet, unlike Phil.

    It’s just funny that they keep pushing having patience while clearly planning to add a star next season. To the point where they stretched Noah to free up cap room to help do it! That doesn’t sound particularly patient, right?

    they wanted ptmilo as a sweetener, and we said No

    Oh, yeah, ptmilo is untouchable. As are a bunch of the others 🙂

    they have to maintain some position toward ‘making ny an attractive destination, in other words ticket sales’ I’m saying they have a job to do and answer to Dolan by putting out a winning product.

    So what they are hedging their bets in the media to where , one side is slow rebuild, other is long term gains. Not necessarily bad thing compared to previous regimes.

    Humor made Joe Peschi like cameo in this thread. More please.

    Ted: one of my favorite characters, but the guy uses blog argumenting just for weight lifting for his daytime job of consulting otherwise known as “building the impregnable wall of arguments”. Argforarg’s sake.
    Jon was just angry and raw. A truth telling savage.

    I miss both of them.

    So what they are hedging their bets in the media to where , one side is slow rebuild, other is long term gains. Not necessarily bad thing compared to previous regimes.

    I guess my issue with that is that stretching Noah isn’t a hedge move. It’s a move you only make if you intend on spending as much money in 2019 as possible, as otherwise you let him expire in 2020.

    I choose to believe that they’re getting rid of Noah to clean up the locker room, make sure there are a minimum of competing agendas there, and ALSO to have as much flexibility as possibility this summer. Yes they could’ve just sent him home a la Josh Smith but then they lose a roster spot too, as well as pissing off agents and probably players around the league in the process. This way they clear him out, let him get on with whatever is left of his career, and move on from yet another reminder of the Phil regime. There is zero chance he could be traded on this contract without us parting with assets, so I don’t think that’s any loss. The real issue is if we strike out completely in free agency this coming summer, but we aren’t privy to whatever backchannel stuff is going on. Every cap $ counts of course but $5-6MM/year isn’t the end of the world especially with the cap going up significantly in the coming years.

    Ted was a classic example of this board valuing “chemistry” over analytics. Personally, I think we gave up on him too quickly. He’s probably posting productively somewhere else right now,

    He used to post a lot on the red Sox message board sonsofsamhorn. I haven’t visited in forever but he might still be there

    I wish I had more time to post.

    Best line from media day from Enes Kanter when asked about how he felt about Knox talking about making the playoffs: “I love it. When I think about playoffs, my nipples get hard.”

    It astounds me that there’s so little buzz about media day and the start of camp. Damn, there’s already a countdown to pitchers and catchers. I’m pretty psyched about this team. They won’t win a ton of games, especially with the unicorn on the mend, but for the first time, in a long time, I feel they’re pointed in the right direction. Adding KP, a top free agent and another high pick next off-season could catapult this team into a different tier. I’ll suffer through the growing pains with this team and honestly, I don’t care about a tank any more. I just want to see this core get good.

    I watched the media day interviews and I can tell that guys like Burke, Mudiay and Hezonja are very hungry. They know that they’ve failed and they know this is a great opportunity for them. I’m rooting hard for all of them.

    1. Is Porzingis, Zion Williamson, Kevin Knox, Frank Ntilikina, Tim Hardaway, and Mitchell Robinson a >40 win core?

    If this is even close to obvious next summer then we will have won way too many games to have a shot a Williamson. Unless he falls way down from sucking in college, natch. But probably not.

    Eh, not really. Because two of those guys won’t play next year and three of the other guys are going to be too young to contribute to a 40 win team now (but that doesn’t mean they can’t later). And the other guy is Tim Hardaway, who has proven capable of turning a 24 win team into a 26 win team, but I’m confident isn’t going to carry us to 40.

    Anyway, y’all talk about Zion like it’s a long shot. By the current numbers, it’s actually the most probable outcome. He’s currently the 4th or 5th highest rated prospect in the land, the Knicks are projected to be the 4th worst team in the NBA, and they have a ~48% chance of landing a top 4 pick if they are.

    Granted, those numbers are so volatile they’re practically useless, but until they change it’s not much of a long shot.

    It’s been too long since the Knicks made my nipples hard.

    i would’t wait by Venmo for your royalty check when JD and the Straight Shots performs this for Duterte’s next inauguration

    Comments are closed.